Broche Banter #41 -- Hannah @ Wonder of Ballet
Today on the show, I chat with Hannah, the creator of the Wonder of Ballet blog for recreational dancers.
We talk about so many topics, about how to feel like you belong in the ballet world, getting en pointe as an adult, and how we hope the world of adult and recreational ballet will continue to change and grow.
Enjoy!
Find Hannah on Instagram @myballetsteps & @wonderfoballet
Or online at Wonder of Ballet
Intro and starting ballet at 15
Julie: Welcome to the show. Hannah. I'm so excited to get to chat with you today.
Hannah: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Julie: So fun. So you have created such a magical presence on Instagram and on the whole internet for not only just adult dancers, but really everyone who has a love for ballet. I mean, it started in the adult world, but you've really kind of expanded it to just anyone who might feel like they're trying to get into the world of ballet and trying to find their place in the world of ballet. How exciting.
Hannah: Thank you. Yeah,
Julie: When did you start your blog and your Instagram account and your whole vision?
Hannah: So I had kind of a personal ballet account for a few years. And then two years ago, I started the .. it was originally Adult Ballet Hub, which I changed the name just this year. And now it's Wonder of Ballet.
And it's still very primarily focused on Adult recreational dancers. But it is a bit broader. Now I wanted to be able to create more of a variety of content and not just focus on that one specific topic.
And also, you know, just the label adult ballet I feel can be overused as adult ballet dancers or just dancers. But anyway, so it was two years ago. It was originally Adult Ballet Hub.
I've been surprised by the response on Instagram, it's been more than I would have expected, which has been nice. I mean, I'm not like a huge account, but it's just more than what I expected, which has been exciting to see. And so yeah, it's been two years I actually just counted up last night. I've written 21 blog post. So that was kind of exciting. And I was like “hey that's a pretty good number!” So I'm hoping to amp that up and do a lot more with it this year.
Julie: When did you start ballet yourself?
Hannah: I was 15 years old when I took my first class. And I had always kind of wanted to do it. But neither my parents were dancers and it wasn't really on their radar and I didn't like beg them for lessons or anything until I was 15. And then I for some reason just became very determined to convince them and they finally did.
Julie: Where did you go from there? So at 15 you started Did you drop into teen classes? Did you drop into kid classes?
Hannah: I actually took kid classes. And I think you know, at the time, I wasn't embarrassed by it, well maybe a little, but I just wanted to do badly so badly that I was willing to go to class with eight and nine year olds. It was just worth it to me. I didn't care what other people thought. I mean, on some level I guess I did, but I just didn't let it stop me, I guess.
Julie: Did you dance all the way through the rest of high school? Did you dance through college? How did it progress from there?
Hannah: Okay, that's an interesting topic for me. Because I'd like to say that after my first play, I just hit the ground running and never stopped. But I think you know, one reason with Wonder of Ballet I'm always trying to encourage people that “Ballet is for you. You're perfectly right for ballet, don't worry about that…” it's because I really struggled to feel that way for so long. I actually stopped and started ballet many, many times.
So after high school, I didn't dance a lot in college. But I thought about it all the time. I took a couple of electives, but just like nothing really consistent or serious. And then once college was done, and I had my degree and was done with all that I was just like, “I have to get back to this and I have to do more with it.“ Then I did for a couple years.
And then I had kids, and then I had to take a break again, not because of kids, but because of it, well that was part of it, but some financial struggles and things. So I very much advocate for the idea that it's okay to stop and start and take some time to find your footing and find your confidence. And that ballet is always there for you. No matter what you've gone through, you can always come back to it.
Julie: And are you back to it now.
Hannah: Yes, I mean, the pandemic has definitely slowed things down for all of us. I dance at home, I kind of just do my own thing. So it hasn't been as consistent. Pre-pandemic, I was probably taking like four classes a week, which was good I'd like to do when the studio is open up again, I think I'm just going to be like so excited and just appreciate it so much. I'm hoping to get up to five classes a week once everything is going again. But we'll see what happens.
Julie: Definitely, I feel like there's so much pent up excitement for it, that the classes are going to be exploding once we can get back to a little bit more normal class sizes and all that stuff.
Hannah: Yeah, I miss it so much like because.. Okay, it's weird, because in ballet, you're just kind of like doing your own thing, right? You're not necessarily engaging with everyone. But just that presence of having your teacher and your classmates and doing everything together. It's really motivating and inspiring and such a good feeling. And I think we all just really miss that.
Feeling like you don’t belong in ballet & why the ballet world should love us adult dancers
Julie: So you talk so much on wonder ballet about this idea of you know, belonging and that you're already good enough for ballet, you don't have to be a certain type of person to start ballet or to continue ballet. A lot of this must have come from these feelings from from what you've experienced, right? Where you maybe you didn't feel some of these things. Is that is that the case?
Hannah: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it took me a long time to really feel comfortable with the concept of myself as a ballet dancer. And it's still a struggle sometimes. A lot of the content I post on wonder of ballet is therapeutic like for me, it's not just for anybody else.
The ballet world can just be just so closed off. I've been told so many times that my body is wrong, I'm not that good. I've been told that like point blank several times.
“The ballet world can just be just so closed off. I’ve been told so many times that my body is wrong, I’m not that good. I’ve been told that like point-blank several times.”
The fact that I have continued to dance is kind of amazing, because I'm usually pretty shaken by that kind of stuff. So the fact that I've continued to dance just goes to show you how important it really is to me.
Julie: it's truly incredible to me that that's still that sort of thing happens. Obviously, My mission is to make a place where people can feel like they're able to improve and able to get better and able to continue reaching their goals no matter what their situation is. And I went through that same thing as well in my …. I started a little later but I did spend a little bit of time in some youth programs or even in some programs that are drop-in with kind of intense teachers and have had a lot of really negative experiences.
When you compare it right, like now as a business owner, you think, “why are you turning people away?” As a business owner… you picture yourself as a gym owner? Let's take it out of the world of ballet. I picture myself owning a gym. Am I going to make people feel like garbage every time they come to my aerobics class? I mean, what in the world other thing is there that's like the whole goal is to I mean, that's not literally ballet’s whole goal, but like there's so much of an undertone of that? What the heck?
Hannah: Yeah, I was actually thinking about that, just like this morning, about the ballet world is missing out on so much by trying to keep it so exclusive and so elitist. There are so many people like me who just want to like spend all of our disposable income on ballet. I want to buy all the classes, I want to go to all the intensives, I want to buy all the dancewear. I will buy your merch, I'll be at the studio every day, I will go to your intensive. This is all I want to do.
“The ballet world is missing out on so much by trying to keep it so exclusive and so elitist. There are so many people like me who just want to like spend all of our disposable income on ballet.”
And if the ballet world would just understand there's like a huge business opportunity here. I mean, I don't understand I just I don't get it. I really don't I think about that a lot actually. Take my money, please! Like why not?
Especially with the pandemic, but even before like ballet companies can struggle to stay afloat. And, you know, why not take on recreational ballet and open a studio division. And you know, if people want to do it, and then what you're doing is you're educating people about ballet by letting them come into classes, and then they'll become ticket buyers. They'll buy your tickets, and then it's just, it could all work together in such a wonderful way if people would just let it.
On Being a Beginner at Ballet
Julie: There's such an interesting, I don't even know how to how to how to put it into words. And it's something I think about a lot. So I'm curious if you have thoughts, because you have such a way with words. I'm curious if you'll be able to put it into words a little bit. But it's this odd thing of … when you're not good at ballet yet which no one starting anything is good at anything that they started right? There's anything you've started ever in your life, you're never good at it the first time you try it right? You always start at a place at the beginning, right? You can't become professional or proficient until you practice or at the beginning. You're always like a beginner.
But there's this idea that beginners are horrific to watch or like if you see a sick old foot you might die or like if you see an ugly hand, you're just like gouge my eyes out. There's like this unwillingness to see beginners. I don't know. Can you help me describe this?
Hannah: Yes, I do. I know exactly what you're talking about. And I think that the way I see it the most played out is when adults do pointe. And everyone's talking about how dangerous it is. No, this isn't dangerous. They're just learning. I mean, like a child wobbly on point. People don't think twice about it. It's normal. When they see an adult who's an adult who's a little wobbly in their pointe shoes. They're like, “Whoa,” and I find it very odd. There has to be room to learn and grow and be messy.
“There has to be room to learn and grow and be messy. You need to be allowed to be a beginner.”
And yeah, I don't understand that either. Yeah, it Yeah, cuz especially like, Instagram comment sections, you'll see it a lot, especially on pointe shoe photos, like if somebody has their ribbons wrong, or they're not quite over the box. If certain people come across that post, they will leave the rudest comments, and I don't get it. I don't understand that because there's a wide range of levels. And you need to be allowed to be a beginner. It's very strange. Yeah,
Julie: I think that's I think that's maybe it there. You are not allowed to be a beginner at ballet in public.
Hannah: Really weird mentality?
Julie: You'd be a beginner at anything you started. You’d be a beginner at the piano, if you started, you'd be a beginner at exercising if you started.
Adults starting pointe
Julie: And I think there's so much around the pointe shoe topic that's fascinating where if a kid's not over their box, which is very common for kids starting out to not be over their box.
Pointe isn't necessarily inherently dangerous. I see so many adults out horseback riding out skiing. I mean, we were out hiking the mountains and they were freaking mountain biking at 40 miles an hour down a cliff. And I was like, and you're telling me that put a pair of pointe shoes on at barre is more dangerous than that? Get out of here.
Hannah: What is the thing about you'll break your ankles? I have never honestly heard a true story of somebody breaking their ankles on point. And if anyone knows of one feel free to correct me, I’ll accept that I'm wrong, but I have never heard a true story of that actually happening.
I have probably kind of controversial opinions about pointe. I don't think pointe is as big of a deal as people make it out to be. I think if you're strong, if you have the technique if you're willing to work hard, I think most people are capable of it. There might be some rare cases of people who can't do it for some physical reason. But I think for the most part, if you have the resources, and you're willing to put in the work, it's totally possible for the majority of people who want to do it.
Julie: Yeah, I totally agree. My whole philosophy has always been that whoever walks in my studio, the assumption is that you are going to get to a point unless otherwise noted, not the other way around.
Not like, you can't get to pointe unless you specifically asked me especially. My assumption is that everyone is working towards it. Unless they specifically tell me they don't care about pointe shoes, which is totally fine, you don't need to get on point.
Hannah: I love that!
Julie: I don't see why it is such a big thing, either. I have seen so many adults go on pointe of all different foot sizes, all different body shapes and sizes, all different everything. And if you're talking about doing 32 fouettés en pointe, okay, maybe there is some risk there. But there's risk in 332 fouettés on flat, there's gonna be time you're getting to that level of anything. If you're talking about safe if you're talking about starting someone at the bar, and you're talking about starting them safely in their pointe shoes, then working up over time, you're not talking about putting them in pirouettes on their first day of class, you're talking about teaching them the technique, you're talking about helping them learn how to be safe….
I don't know I haven't seen any issue with adults en point. Especially because with adults on point, what I see is that you have to encourage them to do literally anything in their pointe shoes!
Hannah: We’re all scared!
Julie: To get them to go up I'm like “No, no, go up. Now go up now do it!” go to choose and they're like “How?” and I'm like, “Just go up just go up. Do it. Do it, do it!” So like the number of adults out there putting on shoes and trying fouettés is like, I mean next to nothing. So as far as … I mean you give a kid a pair of pointe shoes and they try fouettés on their first day, like that it's dangerous.
Hannah: There’s this assumption that adults are gonna be irresponsible with pointe shoes, but it's actually the other way around. And everyone I've known has always been so afraid of center, so afraid of anything on one leg.
Julie: My only thing with getting adults up on point too soon. And I generally say like a year is a good amount of time to start thinking about assessing for pointe. But you should start pre-point on your first day of ballet, like the exercises are not special. Anyone can do them as foot physical therapy, they're literally not special. They would be given to you if you had fallen arches by a physical therapist.
They're not like ballet exercises, like do them on your first day do that before you start ballet. Start working your feet as a human, not as a dancer.
But I think the biggest issue I have with putting people up en pointe is that if your ankles aren't flexible to get over that box, I've seen people get so incredibly discouraged that they quit ballet forever, because they got up on pointe and couldn't really be successful with it. To me, my biggest fear with getting people up on pointe too soon is their own emotional challenge with not being able to do it because it is such a steep learning curve to be able to get up on point and operate the shoes.
So for me, that's, I mean, of course I want then to be as safe as possible. You know, teach them all the safe things, get them to a strong place, assess all the things you need to assess. But then I worry about their heart and their confidence. And that is my biggest worry.
Hannah: Well, going en pointe is like starting ballet over. Yeah, it really is, completely. I was shocked when I got my first shoes by how hard they were, by how awkward I felt, by how it was so hard to just point my toe much less do anything else.
“Going en pointe is like starting ballet over. Yeah, it really is, completely. I was shocked when I got my first shoes by how hard they were, by how awkward I felt, by how it was so hard to just point my toe much less do anything else.”
Yeah. But anyway, I love the online pointe program that you do that you Yeah, that you've made it available for adults to safely build up and work their way up to pointe and that they can do it from home with all of your guidance. That's really cool. And I love that you just assume that adults will get to pointe because that's another thing I was thinking about. In most situations, if you're an adult who wants to go en pointe, you really have to put yourself out there and make it happen for yourself. And that can be hard, especially if you're already feeling kind of not quite right for ballet or “Am I even any good at this.”
It can be hard to approach a teacher and start to have that conversation. So I think that probably holds a lot of people back.
Julie: I think there's so much…. If you think about the exclusivity of ballet that you were talking about earlier, pointe is the ultimate exclusivity where it's like… there's some situations that are tricky with with pointe shoe readiness.
Fallen arches is one of them. Fallen arches when you're when your foot has actually collapsed and fallen down, and we have to rebuild your arch. That is very tricky and takes a long time, a lot of physical therapy, a lot of work. That's a tricky situation.
If you have had surgery, and you have pins in your ankles, and they won't ever fully extend because you have pins, and we can't stretch them. That's a tricky situation.
Any other injuries, if you have osteoporosis, a little risky, right, because your bones are a little fragile.
But if you're not in those situations, like we've put people en pointe before in ballet. Like we know how to do it. It's not like we don't know, it's not like we're guessing, right? Like as a ballet world, we know how to put people en pointe.
But for some reason, we hold the information back and pretend like it's this mystical thing that you'll like … maybe one day in 10 or 20 years, get your first pair of pointe shoes and like, we don't know how it happens or whatever. But like, no, it's actually a very specific and repeatable process that we as a ballet world have done over and over and over again, regularly. So why not help people do it?
Hannah: Yeah, obviously it's, it's important to be safe. And it's important to build the strength and the technique, and I would never, ever diminish that.
But, yeah, it's a formula, right? So why not just follow the formula with adults? Why is there this mental block that adults shouldn't? Or can't?
I saw a comment on a YouTube video that was like, adult beginner and pointe, three words that should never ever be together. Why? Like, why do some people think that way? I don't, I don't understand.
Julie: I don't understand either. haters are always gonna hate no matter what you do is the thing. But there's this like, I think it all comes back to just not wanting to …. pretending like looking at someone who's a beginner is a completely unbearable thing to look at, that it would be like horrifying for your eyes to see somebody new at something. What an odd thought.
Letting adults into the ballet world
Hannah: I also think that there is this mindset. This like, ballet or nothing, like all in kind of mindset in the professional world where ballet is almost seen, I think as, it feels weird to say this, as too sacred or too precious. Which it feels weird to say that because I do think ballet is sacred. And I do think it's very special and unique. And I would never want to you know, diminish it in any way. But I think people elevate it too much and put it too high on a pedestal.
And that whole you know, professional or nothing, if you're not a pro what's even the point? That whole mindset, I think people just put it up too high. Like it's ballet, it's not… it's a huge commitment, but it's not life and death. And you know, it's okay to let other people in on it.
Julie: Well, if you don't, no one's gonna come to your shows, and no one's gonna keep it up for generations. I mean, it's lasted this many generations, right. So if you want to keep it going, you have to let people into it.
Hannah: For sure. Yeah, definitely.
Julie: It's Yeah, it's a strange place, but I think the more people are out there doing it and the more that people are able to see what a beginner dancer looks like, the more helpful it will be for everyone to see what even the learning process looks like.
As a teacher, I've seen hundreds and hundreds of beginners and I know what a beginner looks like and it's just a normal part of the process. If you see a baby learning to walk, you're not like “God, look at that terrible, ugly baby. Look at that horrible teeter-tottering that that baby is doing. Well, disgusting.” Like, you would never ever think that way. You've seen, we've all seen lots and lots of babies learn how to walk. We all know what it looks like, we all know that they step a few times and then fall down. We all understand the learning process of how that goes. So it’s very normal.
Hannah: Yeah, it’s normalizing adults learning ballet and what the process actually looks like and not expecting it to look perfect right away. And giving grace to people as they learn.
“Normalizing adults learning ballet and what the process actually looks like and not expecting it to look perfect right away. And giving grace to people as they learn.”
I think that's that's so important.
Julie: Huge. It's huge. It's how we keep people chasing their dreams, right? I think it's a great message that people can leave and come back to it. But the only thing I don't like about it is I want people leaving for good reasons. I don't want people leaving because they feel like they don't belong. I don't want people leaving because they feel like they can't. I don't want people leaving because they feel like they shouldn't. Those I don't think… No.
Ballet needs to change for that not to happen. We need to help people through those times. We need to motivate them. We need to show them they can. It's okay to leave for other reasons. I totally support that you need to go take a break. Try contemporary, try salsa, find yourself, go to the mountains for a year. I don't know, whatever it is. Like if people are leaving and coming back because they're discouraged. They're unmotivated. They don't feel welcome, I find that completely unacceptable.
Hannah: Yeah, I agree. People should feel welcome and encouraged to do ballet if that's what they want to do. Because ultimately, that's what is going to keep ballet alive is keeping people interested in it.
“People should feel welcome and encouraged to do ballet if that’s what they want to do. Because ultimately, that’s what is going to keep ballet alive is keeping people interested in it.”
Julie: Yeah. Bring it to the masses. I say.
Hannah: Yeah, exactly.
Julie: I say why not? But maybe that's an unpopular opinion.
Hannah: I would love it if ballet was one day just as common as yoga or barre classes. There's a little like yoga or Pilates studio on every corner of my neighborhood. I totally, I would love it if there could be like recreational ballet studios in every neighborhood, and you see that moreso for kids like smaller recreational-based studios. I'd love to see places like that geared more toward adults just popping up all around. That would be cool.
Julie: I think it's gonna happen. I think that COVID is changing a lot of things. I think a lot of places are, unfortunately going under, but a lot of new places are going to come out of it. And I think that people are going to start seeing that seeing the demand that came from the online. I mean, you know, how many, you know how many online studios have popped up in this period of time, that means that those people are seeing demand. And that means that those people, once the world starts reopening again, hopefully soon we see some of that start happening. I think that those same online, people who have found the recreational market will be like, “Oh, maybe there's something here” and be able to start opening? I think it's changing.
Hannah: Yeah, I do think like, the internet has definitely made ballet more accessible. And then definitely, with the pandemic, has become even more accessible with all of these classes. And then I think also, maybe, hopefully, kind of the more professional world or the gatekeepers or whatever, are maybe starting to hear voices of recreational students and hearing we want more classes, we want more programs. I hope that our voices are starting to be heard online.
Julie: Yeah, I mean, I feel it changing. I get, I've gotten many questions since the whole thing started about how to open a studio because I've obviously done several of that. And so people across the country email and ask like an open an adult ballet studio, how can I do it? Or like, what do you recommend? Or what are your suggestions about it? So I don't know. I feel like changing because that wasn't happening before.
Hannah: Cool. That's exciting.
Julie: Yeah. So love it, spreading it all around.
Advice for you
Hannah, I could literally talk to you for the entire day. But I like to try to keep them around half an hour. So let me ask you one last question here. I always like to wrap up with any sort of inspiration or advice that you have for our listeners. You're welcome to take it anywhere you want. But any last words you want to make sure you have a chance to kind of put out there for the world of ballet.
Hannah: I just want people everywhere to know that if you want to do ballet, you should. And if you're already doing ballet, but you want to do more ballet, you should do more ballet. Do as much or as little as you want. Take it as seriously as you want. If it feels like part of your personal identity, like part of who you are, that's fine. It is. It is part of who you are. If it's important to you, then it matters. Because you matter and what you love matters. And you should pursue it with all the energy and all the intensity that you want.
And if it's hard to find opportunities where you are, look online, for sure, but also don't be afraid to try to create your own opportunities locally to reach out to people and see. You might be surprised. I've definitely been surprised in the past by how things can actually get rolling pretty quickly when you just start talking to people. So don't be afraid. Just go for it with everything that's in you.
Julie: I love it. So good. So good. If it's ballet’s in your heart, there's no reason why not to chase it.
Hannah: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are just so many good reasons to do it. Just personal fulfillment. And I don't know so many things. I could probably go on about that all day.
I don't connect with anything like I connect with ballet, like there's no other artistic activity or athletic activity that I've ever done that feels the same. Like I have to do it, I just have to, because it… Yeah, there's nothing else like it for me. Once you find something like that, you don't want to let it go. You have to hold on to it, something that fulfills you and inspires you and feels right and good to you. You have to hold on to that, because there aren't that many things like that in life. So definitely hold on to it.
Julie: Amazing. So, so wonderful. You're such an inspiration. I love your story and, and your message, and everything you post out there on the internet. I think it's voices like yours that are helping change the tide and helping people who didn't think they had a chance that they maybe do have a chance and that they maybe can take from your experiences and from your words and feel like they belong and then ask to belong and then ask to be a part of it.
Everyone's voice out there as part of changing it. So I love what you're doing and that you're you're really sparking something in each of us to go forth and kind of make the world of ballet work for us.
Hannah: Yeah. Well, thank you.
Julie: Thanks so much for your time today. What a pleasure to have you on the show.
Hannah: Yes, thank you for having me. It was great to talk to you.
