Broche Banter #26 -- Kelsey
Today, on the show, I chat with Kelsey.
She started ballet during grad school after retiring from a competitive swimming career in high school and college. Much of her ballet training to date has been in classes with teenagers.
We go deep about a traumatic event in Kelsey’s life that led her to be diagnosed with PTSD. This event caused her to work through perfectionism and body image challenges, and she turned to dance to express that which she had no words for.
She believes mental health is a strength, not a weakness, and that every person should have access to counseling to help them grow, improve their minds, and reach their potential.
Connect with Kelsey on Instagram @dancer_kcms or on Facebook Kelsey Maloney.
Enjoy!
Before we get to the show, let’s take our Broche Bite!
On this segment, we’ll talk about bite-size ballet tidbits to give you something to chew on while you listen.
Today, let’s talk about tutus. There are 2 main categories of tutus: Romantic tutus and Classical tutus.
Romantic tutus were the first tutus with the skirt ending down past the dancer’s knees. Over time, as pointework became more sophisticated, the skirts became shorter to show off the intricate leg and foot detail.
Classical tutus come in 4 different shapes. Pancake and platter both stick straight out (pancake has a pleated top while platter is flat). Bell tutus, like in the ballet Don Quixote, consist of a shorter but droopy (or bell-shaped) skirt, and the powderpuff tutu worn in many Balanchine ballets.
If you have always dreamed of owning a tutu, they’re not as expensive as you might think! Practice tutus are for sale on Discount Dance, Etsy, and many other places for $50-$70. One tutu maker on Etsy, BB’s Boutique, even makes fabulous tutus up to size 4X! Join in for #tututuesday in your next ballet class or on social media.
Now, onto the show!
Getting started as an adult ballet dancer in a teenagers’ class
Julie: Welcome to the show. Kelsey, I am thrilled to have a chance to chat with you today.
Kelsey: Very good to be here today.
Julie: So you I met you around when Broche Ballet started our adult ballet festival. I think that was the first time that we really made like real contact. Maybe we've talked on Instagram in the past, but that was the first time we made real contact. And then now after the summer, you're back dancing with me in the studio for a few weeks, or in the online studio for a few weeks. So tell me about what was happening before I met you. What's the beginning of your ballet journey? Because you do already have quite a bit of experience coming to me. So talk to me about what got you to where I picked up in your life.
Kelsey: Yeah, so I actually did not dance as a kid. I did the like baby ballerina, typical, you know, I was a little girl and you put them in dance. I was not very good. So and it didn't really stick. But I actually was a swimmer my whole life growing up and swam for a varsity team at Georgia Tech in college. And when I retired from swimming, I was joking around with my coach that I needed a new sport. And we were like, “Oh, it'd be so funny if you did ice dancing,” because I was the most uncoordinated person outside the water you could ever imagine. If there was a bench or a wall, I was gonna run into it and fall over. My coach was like, “That would be hilarious because you can't even get out of the pool without falling over. Like how are you going to ever be dancing or ice dancing?”
And it's kind of funny to me that I've ended up dancing now. And but fast forward, I took a year off of really any sports after college to kind of let my body heal. I actually worked in ministry for a year. So that was like 80 hours a week, go go go, so there wasn't really much time. So that year, I just did like random workouts when I could. But then I started graduate school and moved up to a new city. And so I went from downtown Atlanta to a really small kind of rural area. And I experienced a huge amount of culture shock. I hated it here at first because, I mean, you go to the store and you just want to buy milk, and they want to talk to you for like, 15 minutes. “I just want to buy my milk and go home, I don't want to talk to people.” And that's like in Atlanta, they would never stop you and talk because it's just like in big city, you're just going going going..
Julie: That's right.
Kelsey: I've kind of learned to like this area a little bit now. And I appreciate the relational focus and the slowness more now than I did at first, in part just because it was a huge culture shock. So when I was in grad school, I decided I was really bored. And that's kind of sounds funny, but I mean, I was very busy because grad school is busy, but I was bored because I didn't have any friends and I didn't have any hobbies and all I ever did was school. And I got to the point in the spring where I was like, I just need to do something that's like totally out of my comfort zone, just to try it and just like, try something new. And so I searched online on Google “adult classes,” “adult hobby classes,”
Julie: Not even ballet? Just like literally anything that an adult could ever try as a hobby?
Kelsey: Yes. And in our area, the dance studio came up, which was weird. And it was because at the time, one of our local studios had been doing an adult class, but they hadn't really been doing it. So that program was sort of ending when I started. I went one time, and then that was like their last adult class. And I was like, “Okay, well, this is kind of interesting. It's dance, something I really can't get worse at. Honestly, any effort I make is only going to make me better,” which is very nice to be able to see that progress, especially when I was studying in seminary at the time, so you don't really get a lot of results from seminary. It's more like a lot of philosophical, thinking through deep things. Not very physical. And I was really missing that. I was missing, be able to just like get emotion out, get stress out through physicality, but also just like processing some of the changes my life had gone through.
So it quickly became something where I was like, “You know, I actually kind of like this, even though I'm really embarrassed by it because I don't know what I'm doing.” So I ended up the next…. It was like the end of a semester when I started that, so I took two classes and then they broke, like did their summer break, which they don't… they have a Summer Intensive that's one week, but at that point, I wasn't really going to do a Summer Intensive. It wasn't advertised to me. I didn't know what it was. And so I started back in the fall. And because my of my school schedule, I couldn't be put in the level that they would have said was like, the basic adult level, which was what they call Level 5, which is a fairly high level in their studio. But because of my school schedule, I couldn't be in that level. So, what I could be in was the top level. And so they're like, “Yeah, you can take those classes, it's fine.” And so I got thrown into that class, where these girls have been en pointe.. At that point, they had been en pointe for like, three or four years. And, and they're, you know, they're, they're all like ages 14,15 Yeah, they're all seniors now, which is really sweet. But I was like, “Okay, I am definitely out of my league.” But I just fell in love with the group of girls. I was able to sort of play this mentor role with them. And because it was a class way above my level, I got exposed to a lot of steps really quickly that I wouldn't have otherwise. And I think because of my history, in swimming, I actually have a good amount of body awareness. So as long as I could watch someone do it, and sort of figure out okay, like, what are they actually doing with their body, I could translate that into my body.
But what that also means is I missed some of those little detail pieces. That was my second year of dancing that I finally learned that you don't point your foot from your toes, you point it from underneath your foot. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, lightbulb!” I was actually taking a class with you. I think it was like two weeks ago. And we were talking about straightening our legs and how you have to use the quad muscle. And my husband walks by, I was like, “This is like, how did I ever know this muscle didn't exist? This makes so much sense.” Like, “Why was I trying to straighten my legs from my hamstrings?” Like no one had ever told me like, pulling up comes from not only like your hips and your core, but your quads and your knees and all the little muscles. So while I think it's an advantage that I was able to take the teenagers’ class in that I can do pretty difficult steps just because of being thrown in and sort of forced to figure it out, there are some pieces that I have missed along the way that can be pretty big light bulb moments when I finally get exposed to them.
Julie: That makes a lot that all makes a lot of sense. As a teacher, I've seen you I mean, a handful of times, maybe a dozen by now, for class. And I have noticed that you make changes in your body very quickly, like we talked about straightening your legs and getting over your box, and then the next day, you were like straight legs over the box. And I'm like, “What? Did I just? Did I give her a correction she didn't need and she was already doing that and just wasn't doing that that day, or did she make that change in one class?” Right? So that makes a lot of sense that because you already were aware of your muscles that you were able to make that change really, really quickly in your body because you're like, “Oh okay, got it. Done. Check. I get that concept.”
On Starting in a Slow Environment versus Diving Right In
Julie: But I think it's fascinating the points you bring up about the differences in the way you could develop this basic training versus going to the more advanced route first, and I've seen adults do both ways. I can't say that one is better than the other. I've seen adults where they go real slow with us. When we had our Denver studios, we would go real slow, real detailed, very deep technical study from the very beginning. Basically the same way I teach online, very detailed. But then they wouldn't know all the vocabulary because we would spend so much time on the details, and then we'd get someone who came from a drop-in class would come in with all the vocabulary the world they could do waltz turn, they knew what a sauté de basque was. They knew all these things, but didn't have the right muscle control didn't have the details. And I'm not sure which one was easier to mold. I couldn't tell you. I've seen him both work and I've seen him both be a challenge. So I couldn't tell you.
Kelsey: Yeah, I would say the ballet vocabulary is definitely one of my weaknesses. And because I would typically learn just by watching someone I learned a lot by mirroring. So even if a teacher is like “We're gonna do sauté arabesque piqué turn… ” I don't know what you do in like an Adagio across the floor where they would just say it instead of show it to me. I would have no idea like, like, what foot do I start on? I have no idea. But once a group went I could be like, “Oh, yeah, now I know what those are.” And so some of the body position pieces I definitely missed developing. And then when I started pointe, I was put in a class that was like a beginner's point class, but I can only go to it for a few weeks, and then they sort of switched me into a lower level class to just take pointe in. So my first class en pointe they had me try a pirouette away from the bar and, and échappé away from the bar. And I was like, “I don't… I don't like very much…” because I didn't even know like what to do with my pointe shoes. So I ended up not taking that pointe class and took what they call Ballet 3, which is usually like eight year olds, and I would take that en pointe. So I didn't learn very many basic pointe skills, but from that class, they really focus on like, what, what are the ballet directions, what are the ballet terms? And that's when I really started learning the terms just from trying to take a lower level class en pointe, but I didn't really develop any of those foundational pointe skills.
On Perfectionism, Dance, and Swimming
Julie: I see. Well, it was helpful in another way. So you have had quite a pieced-together training, right, which I think is so common for as adults, we pull things together as they fit into our life as they fit into what's available to us. Did you ever get discouraged over this period of time having to piece all this together and being in different levels and all that?
Kelsey: Yeah, so for me, I think I've never really gotten discouraged with dance, because there were so many other things in my life that were discouraging at the time. Dance was really my place of, it didn't matter if I was perfect. It didn't matter if I was making progress. It was just a place to be and to really start to accept where I was in that moment. So any chance I had to dance I was just like, very thankful for and that was a big shift for me mentally, because I am a perfectionist. I have been since I was a little girl. I got all A's in college, I've never gotten a B in my entire life. My parents even offered that if I got a B, they would throw me a party, and I still couldn't let myself get a B. Because I was just like, “No, I have to be perfect at this.” So it's actually rather interesting to me that I, one picked dance where a lot of people are perfectionist in dance, but that two, that even though I am a perfectionist, I can still enjoy the excellence pieces of dance without sort of getting consumed by the perfectionistic mindset.
Julie: Yeah, I'm also fascinated. That is very fascinating and unusual, especially with something like ballet, which is so perfectionist-oriented, and the teachers often demand perfection and other dancers are beating themselves up for not being perfect, and the environment really lends itself especially if you're in a teenage environment specifically, I'm kind of thinking has that environment with it. So that's really fascinating that you're able to come at it from such a healthy place. Were you were you like that with swimming too? Or did you have perfectionist tendencies with your swimming?
Kelsey: No, looking back on my swimming career. It's very unhealthy. Probably the best story to illustrate this is I have exercise-induced asthma and normalize asthma. So when I would swim, I would just go, really until I turned blue. And then I would use my inhaler. And that was like a daily thing, because I was just like, “No, that's, that's the level I have to push myself to to get better.” Looking back, that was probably very detrimental and didn't actually help me get any better. But at the time, that's all I knew. And none of the adults around me really knew to tell me otherwise. I actually was praised for going and pushing that far. And so it became a very confusing thing to me growing up, like, Where are my limits with things? And how can perfectionism be really damaging?
Julie: Yeah, finding your limits is so hard no matter where you're coming from, right? And then you layer that in as well, and especially when you have the positive affirmation of pushing too far. It's hard to know where that comes in, later. I assume that impacted you in many, many ways, in your life in school in relationships, did it kind of permeate your life at that period of time? Or was it really isolated to swimming?
Kelsey: So that was like early high school that I started turning blue. And at that point, it started sort of permeating everything. I was a perfectionist in school, relationships, swimming, and then I also played the cello at that point. And honestly, I didn't really have any friends in high school, in part because I got hurt in middle school and was just like, “I can't be perfect at relationships, and people are always going to hurt me, so why even bother?” And that's really unhealthy. But that was my 13 year old Kelsey mind saying like, “Why is this worth it? It doesn't seem worth it to me.” So honestly, I didn't really have any friends in high school. I had acquaintances I had teammates, but I wouldn't say really had any friends and in part, that was very much a protective like, “I can't be perfect. So we don't need this,” when in reality, that's exactly what I really needed. I really needed those connection pieces, the people to sort of see those inside things I was really ashamed of, and say, like, “I still love you, regardless of that. You don't have to be perfect for me to love you.”
“I didn’t really have any friends in high school. I had acquaintances I had teammates, but I wouldn’t say really had any friends and in part, that was very much a protective “I can’t be perfect. So we don’t need this,” when in reality, that’s exactly what I really needed. I really needed those connection pieces, the people to see those inside things I was really ashamed of, and say, “I still love you, regardless of that. You don’t have to be perfect for me to love you.”
Julie: Yeah. It sounds like you've come a really long way. How did you get from that mindset, which I would imagine took you through your swimming career? How did you get from that, to who you are now? What's happened to between then and now that has allowed you to reflect in such a deep way on where you were and who you want to be and what parts you want to keep and what parts you want to grow with.
Kelsey: Yeah, I'd say that probably happened in a couple pieces. So early in college, I had a mentor and I realized that I probably was suffering from depression and anxiety. And I told her that I thought that was true, and I felt a lot of shame about it. But I was like, “I can't do this on my own anymore. I'm just miserable. Like, I don't want to. I don't want to keep living like this.” And she was able to help connect me to a counselor and I started going to counseling and we did some, what we call cognitive behavioral therapy, which is basically: What you think feel and and how you behave. So we have the most power over our thoughts. So as I started to just sort of undo those thoughts, my feelings would start to change. So a lot of that was the thought of like, “I need to be perfect” became, “I can do my best.” Even that small shift, which is still a very perfectionistic statement, “I need to do my best” was still less drastic, than “I need to be perfect.” And so it started to help untangle those feelings of that people wouldn't accept me or people wouldn't love me or that I wasn't worth it.
“So a lot of that was the thought of like, “I need to be perfect” became, “I can do my best.” Even that small shift, which is still a very perfectionistic statement, “I need to do my best” was still less drastic, than “I need to be perfect.” And so it started to help untangle those feelings of that people wouldn’t accept me or people wouldn’t love me or that I wasn’t worth it.”
So throughout college, I did a lot of work on that. And I started getting some friends, which also made a huge difference. Community, I think is one of the biggest pieces to life, if I'm gonna be really honest. I think that's part of why I really love dance is because of the community that's come with it. I think that's why people really love the hobbies they do is not only the passion for the actual hobby, but the love and care for the people that that hobby entails.
“Community, I think is one of the biggest pieces to life, if I’m gonna be really honest. I think that’s part of why I really love dance is because of the community that’s come with it. I think that’s why people really love the hobbies they do is not only the passion for the actual hobby, but the love and care for the people that that hobby entails.”
Going Through Serious Trauma, PTSD, and Body Image
So after college, I went through a pretty significant trauma. With my family, I ended up witnessing someone really close to me attempt suicide. And so I was diagnosed with PTSD after that, and it was very difficult for a long time. And that's dance has been a huge part of my healing towards that. And I think those two go hand-in-hand to me coming to accept that I can't be perfect. Because having PTSD having trauma in my history, at times has very much limited my capacity. And so my best was different than what I was used to my best being. And dance became the place where I could express things that I didn't have words for yet. And sort of deal with almost the grief of, “Hey, I should be able to do school at this level, I should be able to be an employee at this level. But I'm struggling to get out of bed this morning.”
So that mismatch of what I expected and believed for myself, and what I could actually handle was so different, that that was really hard to sort of wrestle through. And I think dance along with counseling for me for that really has helped get me to a place where there's less dualistic thinking in my life. It's not a right or wrong, it's more of a process. So like, I think a good way to simplify this is, if I'm working on tendus, which are a very foundational piece of ballet, I'm never going to have a perfect tendu. My toes are never gonna push on the floor right, I'm not going to have 180 degree turn out. That's just my body. But I can today, work on “Hey, can I get a little more turnout from where I started today? Can I push my toes into the floor a little deeper? Can I.. one of the things I've been focusing on is can I shift my weight into the balls, my feet instead of my heels.” And those if I focus on that I am making progress instead of focusing on the, “I need a perfect time to right now, what do I need to do?” It's like, “Okay, let's just see, where's my body at today? And what can I do to help my body be more present in this space?”
“If I’m working on tendus, which are a very foundational piece of ballet, I’m never going to have a perfect tendu. My toes are never gonna push on the floor right, I’m not going to have 180 degree turn out. That’s just my body. But I can today, work on “Hey, can I get a little more turnout from where I started today? Can I push my toes into the floor a little deeper? Can I.. one of the things I’ve been focusing on is can I shift my weight into the balls, my feet instead of my heels.” And those if I focus on that I am making progress instead of focusing on the, “I need a perfect time to right now, what do I need to do?” It’s like, “Okay, let’s just see, where’s my body at today? And what can I do to help my body be more present in this space?” ”
Julie: You mentioned kind of having the ability to go inside your body in this period of time. Did any of this trauma play out in terms of body image, feeling challenges with your body itself through all this trauma and and challenges that you faced, or are still facing?
Kelsey: Yeah, so because of the trauma I… well, we think it's because of the trauma because of onset…. I had childhood migraines, but they would happen like once every six months. It wasn't too bad, but pretty soon after the trauma, I started having migraines almost every day, I would have like 18 to 20 a month. And they would last like at least 24 hours, if not more. I also had some hormonal imbalances going on, and so I gained a lot of weight really quickly. And it wasn't that I was eating unhealthy it was that my body was literally trying to protect me. My body was doing exactly what it's supposed to do if something is attacking me. The only issue was something wasn't attacking me. I wasn't in danger. The people around me weren’t in danger, but my body thought it was. So it was a it was a long process to kind of figure out and get the migraines under control and get the hormones back balance. And through that I had to learn to really accept that my body doesn't have to be what society says it needs to be for it to be lovable. My body doesn't have to be what society says it needs to be for me to be capable of doing things like dance.
“I had to learn to really accept that my body doesn’t have to be what society says it needs to be for it to be lovable. My body doesn’t have to be what society says it needs to be for me to be capable of doing things like dance.”
Kelsey: I think also the transition from going from a swimmer body to a non-swimmer body. Growing up, I had a lot of muscle mass and not a lot of fat. But as soon as I stopped swimming, that sort of started shifting, which is supposed to happen. I'm supposed to be medically preparing to have a baby, and that means I have to have fat on my body. And that was sort of that was a hard mental shift. But I think even through that, the disconnection from the trauma, I even felt disconnected from my own body. Now that I can feel connected to my body, I can very much appreciate it for all the things it does, instead of all the things it doesn't do. And so through that, I think body image goes right along. Because someone else might look at me and say, like, “Why are you a ballet dancer?” One, I'm five two, like ballet dancers are not five two. I don't jump well. And I have thick thighs. I have fat on my body. Like someone would look at me and be like, “Why are you doing doing ballet dancing?” And the answer is, because it makes me feel good. Because I love the pursuit of it. Because it's a meditation. It's a healing process for me. So why does it matter what what I weigh? Why are you commenting on that? Like, is that what our relationship is about? Or is there more to me about, is there more to me to than my weight?
“Someone else might look at me and say, like, “Why are you a ballet dancer?” One, I’m 5’2”... ballet dancers are not 5’2”. I don’t jump well, and I have thick thighs. I have fat on my body. Someone would look at me and be like, “Why are you doing doing ballet dancing?” And the answer is, because it makes me feel good. Because I love the pursuit of it. Because it’s a meditation. It’s a healing process for me. So why does it matter what what I weigh? Why are you commenting on that? Like, is that what our relationship is about? Or is there more to me about, is there more to me to than my weight? ”
Kelsey: And I've been running into that a lot recently, and I think that also goes back to being in the teenager class, they have a lot of struggles with body image. And so I really try to be a good example for them, because they are just like the most incredible group of girls ever. I don't even know like how their dynamic is so good, but there's like no pettiness, no competitiveness, they really just encourage each other to be better. And it's just like such a healthy little group, but they all vary. Deeply struggle with confidence and body image. And so being in their class afforded me this really unique opportunity as an adult for them to look at me as like a mentor figure, instead of just a friend. And so I've had some really, really great conversations with them about body image, and being able to encourage them and just be there for them really matters to me.
Kelsey’s Journey to Becoming a Counselor for Athletes
Julie: Mm hmm. You take a kind of a or looking to take kind of a mentoring role with athletes and mental health in general. Is that right? Tell me… Tell me about that journey in your life right now.
Kelsey: Yeah, so I went to college and gotten a degree in Industrial Engineering. And then I did a year at seminary, and then I transferred into a Master's of Counseling program. So there's lots of little pieces to that story. A lot of people are like “Engineer to counselor, how does that work?” But, but it's actually it's interesting to me it feels very similar because they're both very problem solving based, very creative. It's just “Am I doing it with numbers? Or am I doing it with people?”
“A lot of people are like “Engineer to counselor, how does that work?” But, but it’s actually it’s interesting to me it feels very similar because they’re both very problem-solving-based, very creative. It’s just “Am I doing it with numbers? Or am I doing it with people?”
Kelsey: So I transferred into the counseling role I now I'm finished with grad school, I have my degree, and about halfway through my licensure process. So I have one more exam to take, and then half a year of hours to get, but once I'm licensed, I'll be more able to pursue different pieces of career and different areas and aspects of it. Right now I work at a nonprofit agency who gets to provide therapy for low cost for anyone that needs it, and we don't let finances be a barrier, which I really appreciate that. I love my job. I love that we get to be a part of making therapy accessible to all people, because I believe it should be accessible to all people. And because I believe it should be accessible to all people, that's, I think, where the athletes and dancers come in. As it college student, I really needed counseling and I was not given access to it. And I was at a pretty big D-1 school that had funds, and they didn't have a counselor on staff. I had to go outside the school, pay with my own money to get counseling. I think that needs to change because, I mean, we can just look at it in the dance world. There are unique challenges in dancers that can lend themselves to affecting mental health. I mean, if we just think about, hey, they're sitting there staring at their body all day in a mirror, that's gonna lend itself to some body issues, or at least, maybe not as extreme as body dysmorphia or disordered eating, but at least some self-esteem issues. Being in a classroom where you're expected to be perfect all the time, is a high-risk place to be for anxiety and depression.
“There are unique challenges in dancers that can lend themselves to affecting mental health. I mean, if we just think about, hey, they’re sitting there staring at their body all day in a mirror, that’s gonna lend itself to some body issues, or at least, maybe not as extreme as body dysmorphia or disordered eating, but at least some self-esteem issues. Being in a classroom where you’re expected to be perfect all the time, is a high-risk place to be for anxiety and depression.”
Kelsey: I did a research project on the answers and mental health income in grad school, which was really interesting. We got to pick our on topic, so I picked that. And it found that dancers compared to their peers are at higher risk for eating disorders, anxiety, self esteem issues, and then dissociation. All for different reasons, but because of that, I think it's really important for mental health, and then the dance world to work together. And I think that's the same in athletes. Later, in grad school, I did a project on college athletes mental health and seeing if they were at higher risk. And so we surveyed the school I was at, which is a small liberal college, so not a big school. We had a limited sample size, but we did find that overall, athletes were at higher risk for things like anxiety, depression and body image. Which I think speaks to the unique circumstances. And at the same time, there was not access to mental health care of any type. And so I think it's really important just to say to athletes, to dancers, “You are worth getting mental health care. There's no shame in that.” I know the world says like, “If you need help, there's shame in that.” But as a counselor, as a person that goes to therapy herself, there isn't shame in that. And the freedom that you can find from getting treatment of any sort. can really take your life.
Julie: Well, I think it's very challenging when you're trying to get to the top of your, to the top of your game, right? Because any weakness you show is a weakness that your competitors may not be showing. So you have this incredible pressure to always do one more rep than your competitors work out one more day, be a little bit stronger, be a little bit better every single day. And it's really hard to loop into that via acceptance that you can still be a whole person while you work towards greatness, and while you work towards being the best. You are still good even though you're trying to be better.
Kelsey: Two things come to mind one mindfulness, that the perspective of I want to be at the top requires us to be mindful of being in the present. Instead of focusing all on, “When I'm at the top, I'm going to be this. Where am I at today? And what steps today do I make to get to my goal?” I think that change in focus helps us really ground ourselves to here's what I do have control over reverse. Here's what I don't have control over.
“The perspective of “I want to be at the top” requires us to be mindful of being in the present. Instead of focusing all on, “When I’m at the top, I’m going to be this. Where am I at today? And what steps today do I make to get to my goal?”
Kelsey: I also think the other thing that comes to mind is there's so much of a stigma that mental health is a weakness. And I don't think it is. I think that piece might be something society has to work towards changing. Even within myself, and it's taken me a long time to come to this point, it's not like I woke up one day and said like, “I'm very thankful that I had trauma happen in my life.” And I mean, to be honest, there are some really, really awful things about trauma and how it's affected my life. But at the same time, I know I wouldn't be the same person I am today without it. I know I wouldn't appreciate the moment, or my body as much as I did. And I think it makes me not only a better counselor, but a better partner, a better dancer. I know the roles that I've had the honor to play in our performances at dance have been bettered because of my experience with trauma. The fact that I have explored what emotions mean to me, allow me to explore emotions of a character. They allow me to put my own story into dancing. And I think that's really powerful. So I think if we can shift that mindset of: “Our mental health doesn't have to be a weakness or a detriment. It can be a strength. It can be both it can be a weakness and a strength at the same time. And maybe it's not connected to our worth.”
“So I think if we can shift that mindset of: ‘Our mental health doesn’t have to be a weakness or a detriment. It can be a strength. It can be both it can be a weakness and a strength at the same time. And maybe it’s not connected to our worth.’”
Julie: Yeah, that's some really powerful stuff there. You said, in the very beginning, or in the early conversation that your thoughts are so powerful to what manifests in your body. And that therefore would mean that if you can become the master of your thoughts, and be aware of them, and love them, and accept them and use them to help you, then they could potentially propel you to be even better than if you were at odds with your thoughts, or if you were not really taking the time to take care of them.
Kelsey: Yeah, I think the other piece of that is our body remembers things too. So there are pieces of my trauma that I don't have words for, but my body remembers. And that actually is pretty common in people.
Julie: What does that mean? Can you describe it. I guess you said I don't have words for it, and I just asked you what it means. But can you kind of describe it?
Kelsey: I can kind of describe it. So like when I first started trying to tell people the story of what had happened, I literally had nothing. Like no words, nothing like I would just sit there and be like ……silence….. I couldn't get anything out. And it took two and a half years to get to the point where I could write the narrative in words.
Julie: Wow.
Kelsey: But before that point, what I could do was I could dance it. Even before I had words, I could express what it felt like through movement. I could tell you, I feel that in my chest, or, like for me, I felt a lot of it in my shoulders and sort of tingling down my arms. I could feel the moment of panic. Before I could put into words like yes, this is panic. My body was telling me “Hey, I remember this. You need to process this. But you don't have words for yet.” And that was I think in the same way, what migraines were doing for me was my body trying to express pain when I couldn't, and wasn't letting it emotionally feel the pain.
“But before [I could express my trauma in words], what I could do was I could dance it. Even before I had words, I could express what it felt like through movement. I could tell you, I feel that in my chest, or, like for me, I felt a lot of it in my shoulders and sort of tingling down my arms. I could feel the moment of panic. Before I could put into words like yes, this is panic. My body was telling me ‘Hey, I remember this. You need to process this. But you don’t have words for yet.”
Julie: I think what is perhaps the most interesting thing about what you just said is that you said “… what the migraines were doing *for* me” that they were somehow benefiting you, which is a perspective that I've never heard or come across before in my life, but that just really stuck out to me about what you just said.
Kelsey: Yeah, so I don't think all of my chronic illness has that piece to it. But at that point, my migraines and my body were trying to protect me. And so I have to honor like, “Yes body, you were doing the best you could at that time.” I explain to clients all the time that when you have panic attacks, it's because your brain is trying to protect you. Your brain is programmed to say “There's a danger in my environment, I need to react to it to keep myself another safe.” That's a good thing. If you're walking on a hiking trail and there's a cliff, you should feel scared, you should feel anxious, you should feel nervous because there's danger of you falling. But if you're in the supermarket picking out green beans and you feel that same thing, that's your brain … something has gotten a little out of cake. It's not processing danger in the environment, right. And it's thinking you're in danger and it's doing exactly what it's programmed to do. So we need to do is figure out how to tell your body you're safe.
Julie: Yeah, amazing. I feel like that's how I describe, without as eloquent of words as you just described, that's how I try to describe what I call the pirouette panic to my dancers. When they go for a turn, they have a perfect passé balance, and they go for a turn in their eyes go black, they can't even see anything, they can't remember what just happens, everything falls to pieces and they just feel like they're about to die and I try to explain that… Is it? Am I… am I a little bit on the right track with that?
Kelsey: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'm kind of a turner so I don't know that I've ever really experienced that in turns but definitely with jumps I have experienced that of like, “Can I fling my body in the air like this trying to get a split that I don't have on the ground?” Like, yeah, my body's like panicking like, “Oh, you shouldn't do this. You might get injured.” When it's really like, “No, I've, I've built up to be able to do this jump.” It's okay for me to feel a little bit nervous about it. But I can do this.
Julie: Yeah, I think I think it's important to acknowledge that it's okay. And you should feel nervous about these things like we are doing something that is unusual, unorthodox that you've never done before that you're not sure about… like it's it's very normal. You probably should be anxious the first time you go skydiving, the first time you do any of these kind of wild things. It's very normal to feel these things. It's just a matter of going through with it, training your mind that it's an okay thing to do, and knowing that that nervousness is part of this process. But yet that does not mean that this thing is not okay to do.
Kelsey: Yeah, and I think that's a huge challenge for adult ballet dancers or just adult dancers in general, because our brains… we have to sort of reprogram the neuroplasticity in our brains to understand turnout and posture, because everything in our life has been turned in. I mean, you think about it, we sit turned in.. I mean, even sitting crisscross applesauce in kindergarten, you're a little bit turned out, but you're not actually engaging any of the turnout muscles or gaining strength. So you have to train your brain to say like, “It's okay to let your hips go that far, you are going to be steady here. It's okay to use your feet in this way, or stand on rélevé” because your brain has been trained like “No, those things are not normal” And now as an adult, you're trying to make the normal and so I like to tell people to give themselves a lot of grace as they start developing ballet skills because it is so counter to everything you've ever learned that your brain needs some time to catch up.
Julie: That's right. And I always like to say, “Why would you already be able to do this? What about your life leading up to this moment would imply that you should already be able to do this?” “Nothing?”
Julie: I think last question for you. This has been… I mean, I've learned a ton. This has been super insightful for me as well. And just thinking about seeing ballet and seeing mental health and seeing all this from a whole new perspective. What is any, any last words that you have, whether that's advice or just any last points that you really want to make sure that you have a chance to tell your fellow dancers?
Kelsey: Well, probably one of the most powerful things for me has been allowing myself to start choreographing. And none of it has been ballet yet. I actually feel like I'm more of a contemporary dancer. But ballet sort of allows me to come back to myself. It's very much of a meditation for me. I find a lot of comfort in it, and I like the feeling of being able to improve, and ballet helps my contemporary skills. But like to prepare for this, I watched a video that I had choreographed pretty early in my dance career trying to tell my story. And then I did it again last spring. And I watched them back to back and watching those to me was really powerful. To be like, “Wow, I have so much to express and dance. And so so does everyone else around me.” Like right now I'm doing a 30 day improv challenge where all of my dancer girls gave me songs and I put them on random days and I get to listen to it once and then film a minute of improv to it. And the only rule is that I only get to do it once. And I just see what comes out. I’m a little behind on my posting on Instagram because I never really got the whole social media, let's do it every day. But it's been really interesting to see not only the songs they pick, but see the movements that come out of me… see the innate creativity that I have. It's almost like play. And it's, it's really fun. So I guess my last point would just be:
Don't forget to just enjoy dance. Don't forget to do the things that feel a little scary, like choreographing to be with very little dance experience is…. Like someone could be like, “Why are you choreograph, you want to already you have no skill in this?” “Oh, I okay. I don't have very much skill in it. It doesn't mean I can't do it. It doesn't mean I can't have benefit out of it.” And some of those scary things that I've jumped into, which I actually think dance was at the beginning was one of those scary things I've just jumped right into, have turned out to be some of the most meaningful aspects and communities that I found in my life.
“Don’t forget to just enjoy dance. Don’t forget to do the things that feel a little scary, like choreographing to be with very little dance experience is…. Like someone could be like, “Why are you choreograph, you want to already you have no skill in this?” “Oh, I okay. I don’t have very much skill in it. It doesn’t mean I can’t do it. It doesn’t mean I can’t have benefit out of it.” And some of those scary things that I’ve jumped into, which I actually think dance was at the beginning was one of those scary things I’ve just jumped right into, have turned out to be some of the most meaningful aspects and communities that I found in my life.”
Julie: Yeah, it's really true. All those, all those things that we think people will tell us why we shouldn't do things that we should be more experienced before we do things or once you're better, you'll be allowed to do this or whatever it is. It's just so not true. Those aren't the reasons we're doing it. We're doing it because it's fun, because it's healing because it's, like you said, community… for all the reasons other than that, right? It's not about that. It's about so much more.
Kelsey: Yes.
Julie: Well, this was so fun to chat with you, Kelsey. I really appreciate having you on the show and your time and your genuine ability to talk through some really, really challenging things that I know will be really beneficial to our listeners, even if they haven't gone through these things themselves to just understand more and just be able to see the kinds of things that dance can do for people and help them empathize with maybe some of their classmates who might be going through something similar and coming to dance for these reasons.
Kelsey: Yes, yeah. And if anyone listens to this and wants to reach out to me Feel free to reach out on Instagram, or Facebook. I think you can just search my name. If not Julie can tell you how to get to me
Julie: That’s right. We’ll put all of these details in, in the description on the various platforms where this is. So just look there to find Kelsey and follow her story she posts on she posts as she said, not every day but a good amount on social media about her story and her journey and and it's really fun to watch the evolution because as we can tell from today, you've really been through a lot and have taken the time to take care of yourself through and taking the time to figure out how you can live with joy and positivity and all of that through all of the trauma, which is really inspiring.
Kelsey: Thank you.
Julie: So thank you so much.
