Broche Banter #39 -- Veronica K | On Safe Adult Ballet Training
Today on the show, I chat with Veronica K, who runs an online ballet cross-training and injury prevention platform.
We talk about a wide range of topics, including physical therapy, cyberbullying, and popular fake or unrealistic before/after photos.
It’s an awesome conversation where we get a chance to compare notes on how we help ballet work for adult dancers and regular everyday human bodies.
But, the best part is that you will get to hear Veronica’s unique perspective from her physical therapy and personal training background that she brings to the ballet world.
Enjoy!
Julie: Welcome to the show, Veronica. I'm so excited to get to sit down with you and just chat about all things ballet.
Veronica: Yes, I'm super excited to thank you for having me, Julie.
Julie: So fun. So Veronica, for anyone who doesn't know her yet, Veronica runs an injury prevention, ballet cross training platform, and really is huge on safe ballet practices, which as you all know, I care a lot about with all my adult dancers longevity is our key here. And so I'm really excited to be able to chat with you today about all things adult ballet, because we have so much in common with our dancers and how we're trying to train them to dance for the rest of their lives and not dance for a short spurt and get injured. We want our dancers to be healthy and dancing forever.
Veronica: Absolutely, absolutely. That is the key with our both of our methodologies and how we teach, which is why I enjoy talking to you so much, because you're just like, you have very similar views on things that I hold very near and dear to me.
Julie: Sometimes I get asked if we are competing with each other. And I think you get this question sometimes as well. And I just want to start off the conversation by addressing that in case anyone is sitting there listening, wondering why we're chatting with each other. But to me, and I'm curious, your thoughts on this as well, I'll start, to me my competition is boredom with ballet, my competition is getting you getting injured and not being able to dance anymore. My competition is you feeling like you can't do it and losing motivation and quitting dance forever. My competition is any of the challenges in the ballet world that push one of our dancers out of the ballet world, I see someone like you and any of the other adult ballet providers out there as continuing to foster my dancers love for ballet and continuing to keep them motivated and continuing to keep them safe and healthy and in the valley world and trying to help keep them from being driven out by any of those other factors being too busy being too bored, being sad being unmotivated. So that's how I see the synergy between what we do and a lot of the other dance teachers out there. What are your thoughts? Anything you want to add to them?
Veronica: I agree 100%. I've never had anybody come to me and be like, “Yeah, well, I just don't want to take your classes or do your platform because I like Julie better.” We have a lot of dancers who we share because we provide different services. And we share a lot of people.
And I guess like I never really thought of myself as going up against someone else in specific for competition. I did competitions, like the competition circuits, a lot growing up, and you see all these different dance teachers coming together in those competitions. And they're like, “hey, these are my kids,” “These are my kids.” And sometimes you'd go to the other studio and your teacher would want you to take a class at that other studio. Because it's helpful for a student to take classes with other teachers because everybody teaches differently.
“It’s helpful for a student to take classes with other teachers because everybody teaches differently.”
So I've never felt like, and I even tell my kids like that I have my teens, at the in person studio that I work out a little bit, I tell them like it is good for you to take classes with multiple teachers, you don't want to be learning from just one person your entire life. And then it'd be like, “Oh, man, you know what I learned with this one person my entire life, I've never seen anything else.” That's really weird for that student, if you're venturing out like that, or even if you're not venturing out and spreading your wings.
The biggest hurdles in my business, like to get students to actually dance are a lot of the same things that you pointed out. But my biggest competitor is financial restraintss, because I always feel for those people who are like, “I really want to take class somewhere or do something, but I don't have the money.” Like that is a big hurdle that a lot of people have to deal with.
But yeah, mentally and physically, those barriers are much harder to get by than to join the dance world and share students with another studio or another teacher or something like that. I think that most teachers understand that the arts are hard to thrive in and we want to support each other, we're not out to go kill each other. So I don't know, I definitely do not consider us competitors. That's for sure.
Julie: I agree. I agree 100%, I think it's so important to get different perspectives, because each teacher brings their background to the table. So the things that I know that I find, the things that I struggled with the most are the easiest for me to teach the things that I've helped people breakthrough are the easiest for me to teach.
The things that came more naturally, to me, are incredibly challenging to teach. And they're not the same things as what came naturally to you. And so you are able, “you” not necessarily “you” specifically, but you other teachers are able to fill in those gaps that I have in my teaching, and are able to provide that perspective, because ballet is like, there's a lot to learn! Oh my gosh, there is an incredible amount to learn. Sometimes it's overwhelming, even as teachers, and so to know that there's someone else out there who's got my back, and who's got my dancers back. And that can help fill in those gaps is like, takes a weight off. And as a teacher.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah. And I still go well, not right now. But before COVID hit. And before I got pregnant, I still was taking classes with other people, because I like to see how somebody else is explaining something. Because I don't remember it was a year ago now, but I went and took this class with an instructor and she was older. And she broke down the difference of passé and retiré so well that I was like, “I never even thought of it that way. And that's a really great way to tell students who are beginners what the difference between it is and why you have to know the difference.”
So it's just really helpful. I think, the more connections you make, that's that's gonna only help you more and like you said, I didn't even think of what you just said. But it is so much easier for me to help somebody get better at pirouettes, and I am terrible at pirouettes, I’ve always been bad at pirouettes, but I can help people get their pirouettes better, so much better than I can help people with like other things that like came naturally. And feet! my feet were always flat as boards, and I am so good with the feet now. Oh, my gosh, that's crazy that you said that though. It just kind of opened my mind up. And I'm like, “Oh, those are my teaching strengths. My dancing weaknesses.”
Julie: Yeah. And it's like, if you want to turn it, don't go to a good Turner. I mean, maybe someone who was a bad turner, and you see their before pictures. But like those of us who really struggled with turns, and I'm the same way, and I struggle a lot with anxiety up on pointe. I'm terrified of pointe. But I'm really good at teaching pointe and getting out the fear because I have so much of it and I've had to overcome it. And it's the same thing with like these things that we've had to overcome, even though we're not necessarily perfect at them yet. I mean, who's perfect at anything? We are really good at teaching them because I'm like, “Let me tell you the 100 things I've tried, and I can tell you all the things that worked and didn't work.”
Veronica: Yeah. And my you know, saying that it my teacher that I grew up, she was a really good turner she would just whip out like turns and I was like, “Okay, hold on let me just fall down.”
Julie: Well, so yeah, definitely. Some of them can teach the pirouettes. But some people who naturally turn are just like, I don't know, you turn it's like, if I can't turn, that's not helpful, because I don't know how to turn. So it's, it's interesting.
On Toxic Before & After Imagery
Julie: But I also it kind of is a good segue into a topic I know is super important to you, because you talk about it on Instagram and online all the time, which is progressing. Can we get better as adult dancers? What should we be expecting as adult dancers? Do we, you know, we see a lot of like, before and after pictures kind of flooding the internet? What are your thoughts on that? I'm gonna leave that little open-ended and just let you talk a little bit, and I'll dig in.
Veronica: Ok, you might have to stop me! So first of all, the before and after thing. There are some legitimate ones out there that are really showing good progress. Like the other day, I saw one, that was a girl who was holding her natural turnout, and she was turning and she showed a really good before and after, and I was like, “Good for you, show the real stuff, man. Like, that's what I want to see out there.”
And it is so damaging when these coaches that are endorsing their services or endorsing their product are putting before and afters out there that are not actually before and afters. If you go and look at that dancer’s profile, or you go and you see… they say that it happened in this one session, but it's not physically possible. You cannot go from a 45-degree extension to 120 in one session.
“It is so damaging when coaches that are endorsing their services or products are putting before and afters out there that are not actually before and afters. You cannot go from a 45-degree extension to 120 in one session.”
The only way that that's possible is that that dancer was extremely strong beforehand and just had no idea how to lift her leg up to the side. That's the only way that that's going to happen.
But in order to actually gain strength? When I worked in physical therapy clinics, we would have patients come in, and they would do six weeks of physical therapy, two to three times a week. And the reason it's laid out that way is because that's what's been proven by tons of evidence, tons of studies, tons of research, by exercise science, physiologists, physical therapists, tons of people who that's their job, that's their life.. that is a good timeframe for actual muscle development and actual growth, or flexibility growth. You’ve got six weeks, you've got be consistent with the two to three times a week.
And after that six weeks, then you'll start to see some growth. So I always tell people, that's my timeframe. I tell people that timeframe, and that makes people, a lot of people get discouraged by that. And then they'll say, “Well, you know, so and so on their platform, they were able to teach, blah, blah, blah, this in one session, and she went from having bent knees and flex feet, and her splits to being all the way down and oversplit.”
And then have to try to explain to them, I know how that looks, I understand how that looks. But that is not actually what happened in one session. Like it's physically impossible, the only way that somebody…. and that's another thing with stretching the Golgi tendon organ, this is in muscle spindles, these fibers, these components of our muscle, actually protect us from overstretching.
So when you take your arms or your legs or whatever, and you're pulling them really hard and fast, those receptors will fire and they'll lock up. So if you've ever tried to really deep stretch, and you feel like that tensing mechanism, that's what's happening. It's protecting you from overstretching and tearing your muscles.
“With stretching, the Golgi tendon organ, this is in muscle spindles, these fibers, these components of our muscle, actually protect us from overstretching. So when you take your arms or your legs or whatever, and you’re pulling them really hard and fast, those receptors will fire and they’ll lock up. So if you’ve ever tried to really deep stretch, and you feel like that tensing mechanism, that’s what’s happening. It’s protecting you from overstretching and tearing your muscles.”
So when you see those ridiculous before and afters, they're not true, because if somebody was really stretching and trying to stretch to that capacity, the Golgi tendon organ would have kicked in and stopped them from going that far, because there isn't that length in the muscle yet.
So you have to progressively lengthen your muscles so that it's kind of tricked into staying in that stretch position. Otherwise, you can damage the ligaments that surround the joint. And you never want to stretch ligaments, because that's what holds our bones together.
It's really hard when you're a teacher who's trying to teach quality, safety, and actually develop somebody's strength, develop their extensions.
Right now, my extensions are awful, because I'm pregnant, and I can't wait… I'm going to try to when I come back, dancing again. I want to actually like, try to record myself in real life progression to show them how much time it's going to take me to get my extensions back to 120 where they were before pregnancy, I'm betting it's going to take at least three to four months for myself.
You have to have realistic expectations. It's just like media. Things are photoshopped. And that's another thing these before and afters, you can tell some of them are photoshopped, too. So, you know, you just have to be you have to be realistic with your expectations. And I think I think you agree with that, too. Right?
Julie: Yeah, absolutely. I's hard to even know where to start on this topic, which I know you feel the same way, right? Because there's so much here. But it's just interesting because I run you know, obviously two different Instagrams, I have my own way I just kind of post my own journey because I'm also an adult late starter and I just obviously, just in generally obsessed with ballet and love to dance and post my own progress. And you know, it's funny because on that account, if I post myself working really hard on a super slow tendu it gets like no attention, no likes, nobody wants to look at it or talk about it. It's the most boring thing. It's not glamorous. And then when I post like a random picture where I have my leg up high, or like something impressive is happening, it gets tons of likes and shares and comments. And, you know, it's just like flashier obviously, I get it, it's fun to look at the flashy stuff, but realistically, I try to mix in and I find it to be very important to mix in the fact that like, “No, I got this because I work every single day, every single day on this, on tendus, on standing in first position, standing, still working on the details, practicing focusing reading, all of that, but it's not sexy.
It's really not like that work that goes into it is like so mundane to look at and so it's hard to share. It's hard to consistently share because it's not as interesting. Exciting as the before and after. And when you're trying to make it work as a business, obviously, it feels like it would be flashier to share the before and afters and kind of try to catch that attention. It's less sexy to be like, “Let's work together for like six to eight weeks, two to three times a week…” and like, really boring. But realistically, it's what you need to do.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I do have some before and afters on my on my profile, but they are slow coming because they're working on their results. They're still working. I don't have 1,000 before and afters to pull from because my students are still working.
And that's the other thing a lot of them are like, “I'm not comfortable sharing them before and after yet, because look at the other before and afters out there.” “What are people going to say about my before and after, because it’s not as great as this person who's leg’s behind their head, and whatever.”
And I mean, that's just unfortunate to me, because even the small victories should be celebrated with, especially adult dancers. Because they don't have the same confidence as somebody who maybe grew up in the studio. So it's totally different.
And there's that whole other topic with the cyberbullying that really bothers me that I've seen many adult dancers become victim to by people that are much younger than them.
Julie: Yes, I know, before we before… we will get there. Let's get there in a second, before we leave this topic, one more point around the hard work over a long period of time is, I think, something that I wonder about how you do this, as well is like, you have to get someone to believe that it's worth it, and that it's gonna work, you're gonna see nothing for the first while.
And that's okay, right, you don't need to see progress in one day to mean that you're doing it wrong, you need to keep going, you need to believe that you can change something about your body so that you'll bother doing it because it's going to take a lot of commitment to get where you're going.
And getting them to believe that is really actually challenging. And again, as I mentioned, the beginning like that motivation is actually a big reason why people might leave the platform. They're not leaving to go to you. They're leaving because they don't believe they can do it.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah, that is hard. And some people are just harder personalities to convince that they have potential than others. What I do, well, there's a couple different things, it depends on how they come to me. Some people, they will start out my program by the first thing that they ever do is book a feedback analysis with me. And we go through, you know, everything, all the compensatory patterns, and anything that might be affecting them pain-wise, or strength-wise, and I pinpoint all of those things.
And sometimes people will walk away from that analysis and be like, “Wow, I had no idea I was doing all that stuff, or how that could affect me in the long run if I don't fix that thing.” And I tell them, and I hang on to their analysis, in my folders on my desktop. And then, you know, if they start training with me, maybe six weeks later, then I sometimes will go back and I'll look and I, you know, if we're in a private lesson together, I'll be like, Hey, you know what, you used to be really terrible at this. Let me screenshot you right now. And then they're like, “Okay,” so I'll screenshot them. And then I'll do the screen share on zoom. And I'll be like, “Hey, look at your analysis picture, and look at what you're doing today.” And they're like, “Oh, my gosh, I have improved!”
Sometimes I'm bad about it because I get caught up in the lesson and I don't think about it, but I really try to take as many pictures of the dancers during their lessons sometimes. Because they might not feel comfortable doing before and after, but if you take it on the screen, and you show them, “Yeah, you are over your boxes, your feet are getting stronger. Your extensions weren't 90 when we first started now they're at 120.” Or, “Hey, do you remember the last time we tried this step, and you had to hang on to the barre, and now you're doing it in the center?”
Without somebody having that, that they actually joined my platform, and they actually start working with me, it's hard to convince somebody that they have potential if they're really… if they've had a bad teacher who's really broken them down and said, “hey, you're never going to become a dancer” or whatever. That's really hard.
Or if they just truly are looking at everything else that's out there on social media and comparing themselves to it and they just don't believe that they have the potential to improve at all. Those people are really tough.
And I really feel for those people because I was that person growing up. I got kicked out of … well not “kicked out,” it wasn't like bad behavior. I ended up not getting chosen for three colleges, which really bummed me out when I was auditioning. And then the fourth time, I went and auditioned, when I started training with some other people, I got in. And then it was a different college, and I ended up getting my dance degree and going on and dancing professionally, and that's all great.
But I always have had that person in the back of my head, even when I was on stage professionally that would say, “You're not good enough. You're not good enough for what you're doing.” And I still get those times where I find myself really judging myself hard. And I don't think that it would matter what somebody says to me, which is terrible because I just think that it was so ingrained in me as a child, that I can't get rid of that tiny voice. But it also motivates me. It also motivates me to work much harder. And I think that's how I've taken that voice. And I've changed it in my head where “Okay, yeah, that voice, it angers me, but I work harder because of that.” I'm not stuck on myself, I don't think I'm the best dancer in the world. And I do think that there's room for me to always improve. I don't care how old I am or how many classes I've taught.
On Cyberbullying
Julie: Yeah. And I think I think part of that is why cyberbullying can hurt so much because it amplifies that little voice inside your head. I've certainly experienced it. You don't reach a level of followers without getting some haters, right? Haters are always going to hate no matter who you are, or what you're doing. No matter literally what you're doing, there's always someone who doesn't like what you're doing. And you know, I've taken a lot of self-reflection on it because in the beginning, it was extremely hurtful and extremely terrible to experience.
But the only ones that really stung me were the ones that I already believed about myself. So when someone came on and told me I was fat, I'm like, I'm not too worried about that it doesn't really hurt because I don't have that insecurity about myself, right. But someone who did feel like overweight or was working towards that as a goal, that would be horrible. But then for me, the ones who would come on and be like, “Why are you teaching You're so unqualified, you don't know anything about what you're doing?” Or “You're such a bad dancer? How could you dare tell anyone anything about ballet,” right?
And then because imposter syndrome is real, especially in the ballet world, those really, really hurt. I'm like, “Oh, man, you know, I should probably close my business, I don't really have the, you know, I don't really have what it takes a teacher.” But then I'm like, wait a sec, that is really just magnifying your own voice. Only the things that you're telling yourself over and over again, are the ones that actually sting.
So especially with our dancers, the ones who are like, “I'll never be able to do this, I can't do it. I'm not good enough. Adults can't learn ballet” …. someone comes on and says “You can't do this, you're not going to do” and they're like, “Okay, I thought I couldn't.” That will just magnify what you already believe about yourself. And I think that's really important self-reflection, as well to hear what things hurt and what things don't. And the things that hurt are the things that you just need to push back on harder in your own mental space and in your own talk track to yourself.
Veronica: Yeah, I agree. And I kind of started having the that more of that “I'm, that I'm going to prove you wrong attitude” when I was in college, and I had an instructor say something kind of along the lines of what you said because she had been rejected so many times, and had a really hard time finding her way. And then she was like, “why don't you just prove them wrong?” That's a really good way to think of it, prove them wrong. Because you're going to only hurt yourself if you fall down and you let them take over what you're doing right now.
I actually almost never opened this business because of how scared I was of how people would react to me online.
Julie: Yeah, it’s scary.
Veronica: I first started my business. It was fitness by Veronica. And I approached it as I just labeled myself as a personal trainer, which I am, but I was working with whoever wanted to work with me. And I tried to emphasize that I specialized with dancers, but I was too shy to actually put myself out there dancing on the internet, because I was really afraid. I didn't know how people you know, were going to react to me, and then it wasn't until April of last year that I switched my entire business changed the name and I finally was like “I'm an adult like it's time to just go. And I need to do this for myself. And I need to start actually showing everybody the knowledge that I have and like how I can actually help them and how I help myself.”
And so now I'm over it, but it is really hard as a creator, as a business owner, to want to put yourself out there because it's so vulnerable.
Julie: And as an adult, I mean, you know, many of our dancers share little bits and pieces of their journey on Instagram. And I totally understand the ones who don't want to share any of it or they're, they're watching Instagram and enjoying it and maybe they have a private profile and share them some things that are scared to put it out there.
I totally, totally, totally get it and you won't know how it feels until it happens. And when it happens, it'll be terrible. And the second time will be terrible. And the third time will be terrible. But the 10th time won't be so bad. And then you'll be a lot stronger of a person for it. But it is crazy that it happens and that is part of it. The internet is just like such a, I mean, it's a great place sometimes, but it also has the other equally dark as equally bright. It has both sides.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I try to put it in perspective for myself too, sometimes where I'm like, “Hey, listen, like some of my favorite celebrities get some really hateful comments. And they're awesome people.” So I'm like, you know, these people are getting these horrible comments, and they have to reach a point where they're like, thanks, have a great day. Move along
Julie: Yes, well, that Yes. Yes. The very first time it happened to me. I was like, Oh, I must have reached some new people. It's not just my friends who are looking at my profile. I have reached the masses. That's a success, but also like don’t look at me!
I like to kind of wrap up the conversation with a piece of advice. If you have something general you want to give. I'll leave it open to you. But more specifically, I would also love for you to touch on the question Can adults be good dancers? This is a question that I get a lot and that people have a lot in their own mind. Can they actually become good at ballet? Can they actually do it? Is there hope for someone who started as an adult in ballet and or general advice you have for our adult ballet listeners?
Veronica: Well, I 100% think that adults can become good dancers. It just (one) depends on how hard you're willing to work. The amount of work you put into anything, it's going to reflect on your results. I am a strong believer of that.
But I have worked with people who have come into this dance world of being an adult ballet dancer with no experience and have been given their first pair of pointe shoes online.
“But I have worked with people who have come into this dance world of being an adult ballet dancer with no experience and have been given their first pair of pointe shoes online.”
Literally, I have this girl and I'm not gonna drop names, but she's doing it Italian Fouettés better than I ever did them. And she just started dancing like last year with me. So, you know? Yes, absolutely.
If you're dedicated to yourself, if you're going to invest the time and the resources, and you really want that. If you really want to become an adult dancer, that is, you know, up to you to get that energy and put into it.
Will you become a professional dancer and a company? I don't know, I mean, that's again, like, that's kind of a hard one. Because some companies are really open to adult dancers now, others are still really closed to it. And that has nothing to do with you personally, as an adult dancer and your skill level, because I've been rejected from many places, just based purely on the fact that I'm too short or too wide, or something stupid. You get over that the more you see, and then you're just kind of like, okay, whatever. Becoming a dancer does not mean, you have to dance professionally. Dancer is, you know, a broad term or ballet dancer is a broad term that applies to anybody. There's many wonderful, wonderful dancers out there who just don't want to be on stage. And that's okay.
I hit a point in my career where I was like, “You know, what, I'm not feeling this anymore, I need to go do something else.” You just burn out a little bit.
The most progress that I saw with my dancing was from the age of like, 19 years old, to now until I’ve become pregnant.
No, it's not too late. You still have the ability to gain muscle, you have the ability to gain flexibility. I even used to tell this to my 80-year-old patients that were coming off of surgeries or coming off really bad injuries, and they're like, “Can I gain this muscle back? Am I too old now?” No, you're not too old, you literally always have that potential to gain new muscle cells, you always have that potential to grow and get stronger. That's why you know, we give therapy to the elderly. And, you know, or if you've seen somebody who's gotten really buff in their older years. If they can do that you can become a dancer.
“No, you’re not too old, you literally always have that potential to gain new muscle cells, you always have that potential to grow and get stronger.”
So you know, it is really what you put into it at the end of the day. That is my best advice to you. If you want it, go get it!
Julie: I love it. I love a few things that you said there. You said in the very beginning, if you dedicate yourself to it, if you invest in yourself, if you invest in you, and it really is, in many ways, an investment in yourself. It's you saying to the world, I'm going to take time for myself, for me right now I'm going to take time for something that has really nothing externally in the beginning, except for bettering me as a person for bettering myself. And that's huge. And I love I love actually that you've done physical therapy with people in their 80s. I think that that's actually a huge, something I never thought of before as a comparison… people who are in their 80s, can they learn something? If you can re-learn mobility and motion after an incredible accident or surgery, that's actually a huge testament to our ability and capability to continue growing at that age.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I learned so much by being in a hospital in a skilled nursing facility. You see a lot and you learn a lot about the human body in those instances.
Julie: I bet I bet. Oh, my gosh, I bet you learned so much about growth really at at at a at a greater age. I know we were going to wrap it up. But I have one more question for you. I feel like we could talk for literally the entire day. All of our clients are like, why didn't we get an email back? And I'm like, we were recording a podcast for three hours. But one thing I find actually super fascinating about those of us who teach adults of all different body types is that I think we actually have a very unique skill set. I'm teaching people who don't have ballet bodies to have a ballet body. Whereas people who teach at the top schools, they've already filtered out all the people who don't have valet bodies, and they don't have to bother figuring out how to give someone a ballet body. What do you think about that topic?
Veronica: That is really true. I think that it's a lot more challenging and you have to pull upon a lot more like skills that are everyday verbiage to explain something to somebody and really relate it to a normal movement mechanic. Because they are a normal human. You can't just stand in the classroom and spill out choreography. I think it's so much easier to teach my advanced dancers at the studio who've been dancing for years and years. It's super easy to teach my advanced dancers because I can just throw out crazy combinations. I don't have to explain it. They do the choreography. I give them feedback. Cool. Awesome. Have a nice day. Like I mean, of course I'm like doing it with effort. I'm not lazy!
Julie: I hear you!
Veronica: But it's so much more intense to try to explain to somebody, what is turnout? Yeah. And they'll look at, you know, from an untrained eye, they look at turnout, and they think, “Oh, it's happening from my feet.” “No, it's happening from your hips!” You have to really understand how to isolate and show them the mechanic and make them feel it in a normal setting, and then transfer it over to Okay, now it's going to be functional for dance.
That was something that I would say, my therapy degree, and being a personal trainer really prepared me well for teaching and coaching adults, it really changed the way that I… Before that, I was very much so I would go in and teach those advanced ballet classes. And I wasn't thinking about those small, minute details. And now it's just, it's made me such a better teacher, dancer, everything just to be able to explain something to somebody in regular terms.
Julie: Totally. And it's like, how do you take someone who's not flexible and help them get flexible? How do you take someone with no natural turnout and help them have turnout? That's not something that you have to do when you're teaching at the elite ballet schools. Because everyone you've got has natural turnout, they already filtered out the people who don't so you're like always problem-solving on regular bodies. How do you get a regular body to work for ballet and vice versa? That's like a huge part of I think what we both do with our people.
Veronica: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's definitely a more advanced skill set than just rattling off intense choreography. You really have to understand anatomy for that to work for you. And I know you read a ton and you do a lot of research and stuff like that. And I'm sure that that's helped you immensely with being able to explain to your dancers because I had one dancer who said, You know what, I've danced for years, and I never had that explained correctly to me until I started taking classes with you and Julie. And I was like, thank you!! Online studio!
Julie: Right, totally. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a huge I think that just as as as a dancer, I've always just been I mean, I got obsessed with ballet. I just got obsessed with it. Just how does it work? Why doesn't it work? How does it work? I mean, I think as an adult, it's like the last thing we have that's close to magic. Like when you get a balance that works, it just feels like no other feeling. And as someone who hates rollercoasters and physical risk, balancing and standing still is about the craziest, I'm gonna get.
Veronica: Oh man, I’m the opposite!
Julie: I'm like standing still on pointe, yay this is so exciting. It's such a fun feeling. So for me, like, that's how I get my kicks. It's like magic to me, because I don'tlike any other physical sensations. That's why turning is so hard for me!
Veronica: That's like, I'm like the opposite. I love the risk factor. So I'm like, whenever I did, like grande allegro, or anything really big and crazy. With dance, I always like had that adrenaline rush. And I was like, yeah, adrenaline. So I was always like the jumper and like, really crazy, like big stuff like that. Which is also why I was I also am a big jazz dancer, too. I loved jazz growing up, and I danced on Carnival Cruise. So jazz was always a huge thing for me. I actually wanted to be like in Giordano dance, or like Fossey when I was in college and just didn't pan out. I don't know, I just lost that motivation on that. And I'm like, moving on to something else.
Julie: Oh, my gosh, that's incredible. So funny. Everyone like I like we were talking the beginning. Everyone has their strengths and the parts of ballet that they really, really enjoy teaching and dancing. Oh my gosh, it's so funny. I always think it's hilarious when I meet somebody the exact opposite because I'm like, I can't even fathom where you're coming from.
Veronica: It is great, though. Because it's just like the Adagio versus the Allegro dancer. Like, you watch somebody and they have awesome extensions. And you're like, Yeah, well, you're not. They're not as great at jumping as I am or whatever, you know, but it is funny. We all have our strengths. And we shouldn't downgrade any dancer because they have strength in certain areas. It's just it is how we are you know, we actually have different muscle fibers. Some people are more conditioned with their type two than type one muscle fibers. And so that's it's just like the endurance athlete versus the sprinter. So, our sprinters and our endurance athletes endurance = Adagio sprinter = Allegro. So, and I did sprint in high school. So there we go.
Julie: Always so funny. Well, this was actually incredibly fun to be able to actually chat. I mean, we've chatted online forever, but it's fun to actually go to sit down face to face and chat about these topics that we're both super passionate about. So thanks a lot for your time today. I had a lot of fun getting to sit down together.
Veronica: Yes, I did too. And honestly, when I get this little guy out of me, I'm gonna be coming to take some classes with you probably starting at the beginner level again.
Julie: Ain't no shame in that. I personally love to be in your classes. They're nice and slow and detailed, nitty-gritty. So I'm a huge fan of the beginner level myself.
Veronica: I know everybody needs it every now and then. Thank you so much for having me, Julie. I really appreciate it.
Julie: Yes, thank you so much!