Broche Banter #12 -- Julie Gill
Today on the show, one of our dancers, Bree, interviews me (Julie) about my story with adult ballet.
We talk about how I started ballet, how I started teaching, moved to Denver, opened Broche Ballet, and closed our doors after the coronavirus.
Enjoy!
The beginning — starting at age 17 & moving to NYC
Julie: Well, welcome. I have one of our wonderful dancers at the studio Bree who is actually going to be interviewing me today. So welcome to the show, Bree it's great to have you.
Bree: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is fun.
J: We're flipping the script, today, I'm going to tell my story about adult ballet. I'm going to tell my story about the studio. Bree has been a part of the studio for a couple years. Since, when I was the only teacher maybe? A long time! And we've we've gone through a lot since then Bree’s moved but she still dances online, so she's been a part of the studio for quite a while. She's awesome asking questions and storytelling. So that's why I've invited Bree on to interview me.
B: Well, again, thank you for having me. And thank you for asking me. I've heard bits and pieces of your story. So I'm excited to kind of uncover those extra pieces that I maybe don't even know about. And so when I was thinking of questions to ask you, the very first one that came to mind is when you think back, What is your very first memory with ballet?
J: Um, you know, it's funny, I don't really have any memories of ballet before I started doing it. Weird right? Weird. I don't have any memories really, of like being young going to a ballet or like having any interest in ballet prior to like, deciding to do it. So my first like, actual memory of it is getting the leotard and like deciding to go to class and like I went, I was 17 and I had just gotten a job and had my own car, and I was like, Yay, like, let's do what I want to do or whatever. And it was the dance store and was like looking for a leotard and being like a tall person like I'm five, nine and a half-ish and being a tall person was like, Where do I find a leotard? And so I just remember looking for leotards and got this like super boxy black one and didn't know you were supposed to wear a skirt to adult classes, or like, most people wore skirts, so I just like showed up in a leotard and tights. And like I remember that very specifically is just like the outfit, getting the outfit. And then going to my first class.
B: So did you go and find a leotard before you even signed up for your first class?
J: Yes.
B: Okay, so wanting to look the part a little bit?
J: Yeah, totally. I mean, what's the point if you're not going to dress the part?
B: Yeah. Okay. And then thinking like when you first started looking for ballet studios or classes that you could take, what was the goal or what was the motivation there?
J: Um, I wanted to like I wanted initially to do something other than what I had been doing. So I had been doing very musical stuff so I was in band all through high school was played many different instruments and just was like that was like my thing and I was not very physically inclined to most things like very clumsy, still am, tripping over stuff like just couldn't touch my toes was very sort of out of shape and clumsy and wanted. I was just bored and over high school as a whole and wanted to try something totally different. So I was like, okay, what's the hardest thing I can possibly try? What would be the hardest thing for me? Then I'm like, Okay, well, probably ballet because it requires you to be super graceful and flexible. And I don't think I am any of those things. And so I wanted to just do something really, really hard but super different from what I had already been doing.
B: Interesting. So what was it about doing something really hard or something just completely that felt like out of your wheelhouse that interested you?
J: I think like so a lot of things happen when I was finishing high school so I was finishing high school… I grew up in San Diego and I had lived in San Diego my whole life and never really identified with San Diego like I was always I never really felt like I found a group of friends where I fit in. I never really found like, I found that I had a place in San Diego that I like fit in. And so I was so ready to leave, I was so ready to leave San Diego I was ready to go I wanted to move to New York City, and like live the hustle life and you know, live somewhere else. And so I like dyed my hair dark brown, obviously, it's blonde naturally. So I dyed my hair dark brown, cut off my bangs, and moved to New York City like wanting to do all of these things, so like who I am, I don't want to be any of that anymore. I want to be someone like totally different. So I wanted to just flip the table on everything I had done so far, but I mean, ballet is not that far from music. So like, let's be real here. But, like I thought that all of these things would like enable me to become someone else or like change my identity.
B: And so when you went and went into that first class, how did it go?
J: It was a blur. I had no idea what we were doing. Why are you… Why are we doing this stuff? It seems so arbitrary and I was expecting to be twirling around and leaping around and I was not expecting what we did in class and all of the words made No sense and I just it was like a fog like it made no sense the time passed. And it was super fun. And I loved it immediately. But I didn't understand why or what we were doing. No idea, all of it made no sense.
B: How long do you think it took you to kind of pick up on those pieces to understand the what and the why and how it was gonna all fit together?
J: I don't think I started picking up on it at least until I moved to New York City, maybe about a year after I started ballet in San Diego. And I may even maybe even didn't pick up on some of this stuff until I started taking private lessons where the teacher like broke it down a lot more for me, because in the classes that I started, just kind of dropped you into the deep end, right? You just like go there. And they've all been doing it for a few years. And you're like, I don't know, looks like you should already know what this is, I have no idea what's going on. So I may not have picked it up until the private lessons kind of broke it down for me.
B: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, there's so many different pieces to kind of put together and make your own puzzle. And, so you said that you immediately loved it. And it was fun even though it was a blur so what were the pieces that you really loved?
J: Um it's funny i wish i knew i just like went in there and was like this is it this is home I don't I was looking for home I was looking for what home was I was looking for where I could feel like I belonged I was looking for a place that felt like me and I'd always been searching for it, like I said like the dark hair the bangs the New York thing like all those things, I was like searching for who I was and where I belonged and where I fit in. I was just like this this is where why tendu’s don't really scream “you fit in” but like somehow the whole thing was like yes, this is like the perfect place for me.
B: So you said it felt like you were home like the is that like being at the barre is that the people who are in class with you is that listening to a teacher and responding like what about it felt like home?
J: I the barre has always felt more like home to me than the center. I love the barre, center is like *shudder* — I mean, obviously, I've come to enjoy it, but the barre has really always been where I feel the most at-peace. And I think I think what I was feeling there was like being able to escape in the mind so you can slow the mind down, you're forced to focus on so many different tasks at once. That the mind has a chance to just like not wander and not talk to you and not be noisy up there. It just has a chance to like, be quiet, which is, which is not something you necessarily get when you're in the higher levels of things like in the higher level of music where I was, I don't think I was getting that anymore. And the higher levels of like marching band that I was in, I wasn't getting that like escape or that like sort of almost runner's high-type feel that I was getting from the bar of like, look at all this stuff you have to focus on.
B: Yeah. Okay. And so, after you moved to New York and you continue taking classes, it sounds like that's a space where you get into like “real ballet world”. So what were some of your first experiences with that world that was brand new to you?
J: Well, just some logistical things about New York City were brand new because obviously I moved to New York City having lived in San Diego. So it's a very different world, right. New York City is like very hustle and bustle. You're moving around, and I was living downtown, going to college at the time and went to the Joffrey School, which is just like a little bit above downtown. So like, kind of like, still lower Manhattan, but you’ve got to take the subway to get there. So it's like four stops or something, you know, sort of like a big deal when you're 18 and you've got freshly brown hair, you know, ready to take on the world. So I took the subway up there to the studio to the Joffrey Ballet that was like, the first place I found that would take adults. I mean, for some reason, I didn't find that many right off the bat. Maybe they don't have as big of an internet presence or whatever. So I went to the Joffrey and the elevator situation. Oh my gosh, if you've never been to New York City, the elevators are so weird. So you get in the elevator and there's a door you open. You open a physical door and then the elevator door slides open behind it. So, you're like in this creepy dark, tiny room like creaky place, right? You open a door, the elevator comes, you get in, and then when the door opens, there's another door you have to push to get out of the elevator, but I didn't know that because it was my first time in this elevator. So the doors slide open and like I'm stuck in this elevator, I can't even stick my arms out. It's so small that I can't even stick my arms out and I'm like, I'm stuck in this elevator. I'm like wearing my ballet clothes stuck in an elevator. I took it back down and someone else got it and I was like, Hi. Just ride the elevator with me. So then they like looked at me and was like, are you gonna go and I'm like, you go, you're welcome to go first. So they opened the elevator door and we you know, get into the studio and it was just like so intimidating. You walk in and everyone knows where they're going and they're like walking around fast in the hallways are this big. So you're like trying not to bump into people and I already mentioned I'm clumsy, right? So I'm like, stepping on people and stepping on things and it was it was super, super intense. But again, like still felt I was like, We're here. We're doing it. This is like this is This is like the real deal. I'm so excited.
Did you want to go pro?
B: And given that you started at 17, and you're taking classes, I mean most, I think of the dancers in the studio and online, don't have goals of becoming a professional. Did you ever entertain, like the idea of wanting to go pro?
J: I did. Yep, I did. I wanted to go pro in the beginning. I wanted to go pro for a long time. And I still entertained that probably until my mid 20’s — that I was like, still wanting to go for that. And it led me to summer intensives. I went to youth summer intensives when I was 21. And like got the pre professional training experience, like I went to these Central Pennsylvania youth ballet, which was awesome. It was five weeks, it was super intense. went to Gelsey Kirkland Academy for a few weeks, and did the like pre-professional training thing. And, like just still wanted to go pro that whole time. I didn't know why necessarily, but was just sort of like, again, want to do something totally different than what I had been doing and thought that that was be something I would enjoy doing.
B: And when did so you said in your mid 20s was kind of when that changed. So what was the, I guess trigger to stop thinking about ballet is something to do professionally and something to do for fun.
J: It was hard. It was hard. It was not easy. I ended up quitting for about two years circa this decision. Because I was like, if I'm not going pro, what's the point? You know, I had to come around to I had to come around to that serious question of like, well, you're not going to do this. You don't want to do this. And I had, I'll get to that in a sec. But I had to, like, decide that ballet was okay to do without that goal, and that it was like worth doing without that goal. Obviously, I have continued past that, but that was a hard time when that was my goal. And I gave up on it. And obviously ballet dancers tend to be super perfectionist. And so it's like, if I can't be perfect at this, what's the point? I might as well stop doing it. And then you know, took a couple years off and was like, dude, just do it. Like it's, you enjoy it. You love it, just like keep doing it. It's not you You're going to get really you can get as good as you can get, you're going to just keep going every week and keep getting better.
“If I’m not going pro, what’s the point? I had to come around to decide that ballet was okay to do without that goal, and that it was like worth doing without that goal.
Obviously, I have continued past that, but that was a hard time when that was my goal. And I gave up on it. And obviously ballet dancers tend to be super perfectionist. And so it’s like, if I can’t be perfect at this, what’s the point? I might as well stop doing it.
And then I took a couple years off and at some point, was like, dude, just do it. Like you enjoy it. You love it, just like keep doing it. Just keep going every week and keep getting better.”
But I saw I went to the youth intensives when I was 21 super super intense, oh my gosh, like that is serious stuff like those kids so much respect for those kids who make it through those programs and go pro and like, keep going at that level because, like the the not only are you exhausted all the time, physically, like it's serious. It's like serious, hard work to be taking four or five classes a day, six days a week. It's like serious business. But also the mental aspect of it is so challenging because you are in a very highly competitive environment. Whether or not the school is encouraging you to be competitive, you feel competitive, because you know that these people who are in class with you are the people who are trying to get the same thing you are trying to get. And in the ballet world, there's like, you know, five spots available and you're like, well, there's I see 100 of us here. So how is this gonna work out? Like you feel that intensity. And, like, I don't think the schools I mean, maybe they promoting it or thinking back up, maybe they were promoting it, but either you feel it, you can feel it, you know the reality of the situation.
And so I think that was very intense. And I think after a while of kind of going at that level, I was like, I don't really know if I want to do this professionally. I mean, I really enjoy.. I've always been a person who enjoys many, many different kinds of things. And actually, after a lot of time doing only the same thing, I felt like I didn't have any creativity and it wasn't that interesting. And while I enjoyed ballet, I like really like to do a lot of different things. Obviously owning a business, you do so many different things. And so I was thinking like, if I'm just doing only this, I don't think I'll actually be happy. And that I'll actually enjoy doing only this everyday because if you want to be good, you've got to like do it. That's it. That's all you do for a while because that's that's what you have to do to make it so I was like, I don't think that sacrifice is not worth it to me. I don't that's not where I will be happy. So I knew that was true, but it was so hard to like agree with me, that was where I wanted to go.
Taking some time off & learning important lessons through powerlifting
B: Yeah. Well, it sounds like so you said you took some time off to kind of like process that and kind of come to terms with that decision and then decide what ballet would mean to you in the future. So what did you do during that time off that helped you to kind of work through that?
J: Well, at that point in time, I had graduated college and got a job. So I worked like the full time programmer job for a while I worked at StreetEasy in New York City, they’re a real estate company, super fun company. I worked there for a while and just sort of like, lived that lifestyle, like for a while. I mean, I've always had several congruent, like life goals happening at the same time. Like, obviously, all of these goals you have to be sort of single-minded with so getting all of them to fit together has always been interesting, but I always thought that one day I want to, you know, climb the corporate ladder and do the whole like, corporate thing. So like started on that path and was like, let's just see what this path feels like. I'm not a huge fan. Not a huge fan of that after trying it.
So after doing that for a while I started powerlifting to try to get back into my body and my and movement and again just like wanting to do something else to get back into it but like still afraid of trying ballet because I didn't want to get back into that world. I wasn't sure if I was ready to be in that world yet, but I knew I wanted to do something. And powerlifting was like weirdly similar to ballet and that it's very technical and very like you have every move has a correct way of doing it. Like there's three moves, right, we're not talking about 300 moves, there's like three moves, but they're very technical motions. So you, you have a lot of form and technique and improvement and process and habit and ritual. And it has like all these things in it very similar to ballet, which I think I enjoyed even though the goals are very different or like the actual end game is very different.
B: Yeah, I find that so interesting, because when I think of powerlifting or just really any form of weightlifting, obviously, there's technique and there's form, but you don't necessarily associate the ritual or even the beauty of dance with it, but it sounds like you very strongly do.
J: Yeah, I guess though, it's funny, I guess I do like the ritual part of ballet where you go there and you start with the same thing. And it's the same motion. And I like similar things. Like I listen to the same song thousands of times before I pick a different song to listen to. It's like, I like the things to be very routine. And every time you go there, you warm up the same way you, you do the same motions, you put the weights on, and sometimes you lift more than other times, but it's always the same thing about it.
There's like weird things about ballet [that don’t translate]. Like, I would never want to make a weird face, you know? Powerlifters make weird faces, … aside…. like you gotta, I mean, you want to look good while you're doing it, obviously….. So I like wouldn't make weird faces and the coach was always like, Are you are you trying and I'm like, yeah, I'm trying. I just don't grimace. I don’t want to grimace. We finally discovered that if I like didn't look at myself. In the mirror that I could lift a lot heavier weights, because I wasn't so worried about like keeping the ballet like composure during the lifting process and would like be able to be a little bit more like ugly with it.
B: Okay, and so all right. And so you mentioned earlier that you got to a place where you accepted that ballet didn't need to be something that you pursued professionally could be something that you pursued because you love it. And so when you returned, what was the focus or the goal just to get as good as you could get?
J: I think so. I think that like I, and I see this with some of my dancers who have had a similar mindset as me, I think I thought that I wouldn't be able to get good at it without going hardcore at it. I don't think I don't think that I agreed that you could get good at something by doing it infrequently. So I think by doing powerlifting like I only did two hours a week. That's all I did. I only did two hours. We go to Tuesday and Thursday for one hour and that's it and I did no practice at home and I did nothing Except that. And got really good at it like I could lift, I could deadlift, like 260 pounds by the time we were done with it. Like that's a lot of weight for twice a week, that’s a lot of weight. Right? That's a lot of weight. So I think that I was like, oh, fascinating. So if you just like do something regularly, even if it's not eight days a week, obviously, there's not eight days in a week, but that's the mindset that, you know, is in, like, okay, fascinating. So if you do it regularly, even if it's not every single day, every single second of the day, you can actually still be good at stuff. I don't think I got that idea that a little bit actually counts. And so I think when I came back to ballet, I was like, Yeah, I mean, you can actually do this at a sustainable pace and still get good at it. And was just like, go consistently enjoy it dance, you know, can just get as good as you can, I think is what I was wanting to do.
“I think I thought that I wouldn’t be able to get good at [ballet].
I you do it regularly, even if it’s not every single day, every single second of the day, you can actually still be good at stuff. I don’t think I understood the idea that a little bit actually counts in the beginning.
And so I think when I came back to ballet, I was like, Yeah, I mean, you can actually do this at a sustainable pace and still get good at it. And was just like, go consistently enjoy it dance, you know, can just get as good as you can.”
B: And how does that ultimately transition into teaching others? Or then especially adults,
J: Like the mindset of it?
B: Yeah, yeah.
J: Well, I think since I've been through so much of this I see it in so many of the dancers because we all have such similar… well not everyone has the same exact way of thinking that I have but there's the people who are like this I can I get it, I get it. I get it so hard like I get it right you, there's this just insane level of perfectionism that is associated with ballet and so encouraging people to come around to like, the fact that perfection is a, you know, direction, not a location. It's like we're just aiming in this way. We're not going to get there. That's okay. When there's not a place you can get. It's like infinity, right? You never get to infinity, but you're like going in that way. I think that's always interesting to me to try to help people come around to this Not that I've come around to this in all parts of my life, but it's easier to see in other people and help them kind of through this. It's worth it even if you're not perfect. It's still worth it to be on the journey.
“Perfection is a direction, not a location.
It’s like we’re just aiming in this way. We’re not going to get there. That’s okay. There’s not a place you can get. It’s like infinity, right? You never get to infinity, but you’re going in that way.
It’s worth it even if you’re not perfect. It’s still worth it to be on the journey.”
Learning how to Teach Ballet
B: Okay, so And speaking of journey, how did you transition from taking classes like returning to ballet taking classes in New York to moving to Denver and starting your own ballet studio. It's a big shift.
J: That's a huge shift. Especially because I was still I was still doing the corporate ladder thing. I so I started back with, with Beth, who was my private teacher in New York when I first moved there, she was awesome. She was like all about taking everyone seriously who came in like giving you technical training, that was sort of her whole message. And she helped me a ton through through all of this time. So I came back to her first of all, and in one of our lessons, we had been back for like, I don't know, six or eight months or something. And then in one of the lessons, she slipped on the stairs and broke her tailbone. And then I know it was like, you know, she's wearing her ballet slippers and she was carrying the CD player because obviously, CD player was involved. She was carrying all this down the stairs and it was in New York. So it was like rickety, you know, and she slipped on, she just slipped. Um, we didn't think it was that big of a deal at a time, we just kept going with the lesson. But then it turned out to be a pretty bad break. And then she, you know, ended up being bedridden pretty much for the rest of her life. She reached out to me and was like, Hey, I can't teach, but I really don't want this thing to die. Because at that time, she thought she was going to still be able to recover and come back and all of that. So she was like, Can you just keep my business alive while I'm recovering? And basically just said, will you teach my students and I was like, ah, how would I do that? Yikes.
But she taught me how to teach. She would like email me back and forth with specific problems dancers were having and give me lesson plans with the people who she had been working with, and would give me things to work out with them. And whenever she was able to, and feeling well enough, she would come to the studio to watch me teach and be like, I would have corrected that I would have corrected this. Or she would teach them and I would watch her teach them to see how she would handle the problems they were having. So it was maybe a Year of time that we did that together, I was still working full time. So that was like nights and weekends that I would go and teach her dancers.
B: That's such an interesting way to learn how to teach like without the first one, you were introduced to it to lesson planning and corrupting in a certain way, or had you been able to kind of pick up from your other teachers.
J: It was the first time, it was the first time for sure. Because, like I said, I was always still piecing things together. Like ballet has always felt sort of arbitrary to me until I started teaching it where, like, the order that you do the exercises, makes no sense why you do a plie sometimes, and sometimes you don't need to in a tendu combination never made any sense to me. I thought, the teachers were just making it up. I didn't know that they had a reason why they were doing things in a specific order and adding certain things right. I didn't understand that bar when translated to center, like there were many holes and all of that. And then it wasn't really until that deep level of training where she's like, here's why I'm doing this. I'm like, oh, okay, great. You didn't just make up a tendu combination. There was a reason for this. I don't know why I would have thought that, because I used to teach maths teach all kinds of things, but for some reason I didn't put that together with ballet.
B: Yeah, I yeah, I can imagine. I mean, this is pretty much everything. But when you start teaching it like you learn it so much more deeply for yourself. So I can Yeah, I feel like my life much absolutely be the same way.
J: Well, the fascinating part is that you think your body is normal, until you see other people's bodies at a close up level, right? So like, you're you all you know, is your body. You're like, doesn't everyone split do that? Does everyone's leg look like that? Doesn't everyone's arm move like that. Or at least that's how I think about it. And then when you get someone who's having a challenge that you've never had before, it's like, fascinating. What is going on in your body that's making this happen? So then I just got super, super curious about like, different bodies and how they moved differently. And it's like, wow, I can see how that would be. I would like try to simulate in my body like, what if I was tight here? How would that feel if I was trying to do this? Or like, how would? How would I would? How would I like try to modify what I'm doing to try to understand what they're feeling? And try to understand how, why or why are they different than me? And how, like, how can I take what I know to help them get to what they're trying to do? I was just super fascinated.
B: Yeah, I mean, to hear you talk about it sounds like you were sort of, in many ways born to be a teacher like you just have that natural curiosity and that natural logical thinking and a bit of empathy kind of mixed together to get that sense of, well, what what's happening for them, what are they going through and how can I recreate that to find the like missing link or the the gap that needs to be filled? And then what can I fill that with?
“I mean, to hear you talk about it sounds like you were sort of, in many ways born to be a teacher like you just have that natural curiosity and that natural logical thinking and a bit of empathy kind of mixed together to get that sense of, well, what what’s happening for them, what are they going through and how can I recreate that to find the like missing link or the gap that needs to be filled? And then what can I fill that with?
- Bree”
B: And, but I'm curious, did you ever ask Beth why she chose you and why she asked you specifically?
J: Did I ever asked her? She I know she told me Some part of why she wanted me to do it. I think she I think she really liked the like my eagerness for all of it because she was always trying to continue to foster my desire to become professional. She became a professional dancer at age 30. And so she always believed that it was possible for me to become a professional dancer. And she always believed that she always wanted me to keep going with that dream, she always would encourage me to keep trying and she was super disappointed when I kind of made the choice to go work full time and not like do the hustle dance life. She was really sad about that. So I think she was very happy to see me come back into the ballet world after a couple of years and was just like over the moon that I was still in it and excited about it and so passionate about it that I think that was a big part of it because she always did seem to have a very strong affinity towards my insane appetite to continue learning more stuff with her.
B: I bet. It's so cool just to hear stories about adults becoming professional later in life or just like, I mean, you we hear stories all the time about women in their 60s and 70s, who are still dancing and like keeping up their technique. And ballet is just a part of their life. And so it's cool to hear those stories about, you know, somebody in their 30s going pro. That's so cool.
J: So cool. I had this email from her, I have this email, I still remember it, the subject line, “How to do it.” And it was like her, how she got to be a professional and it was like about how she would pick up jobs as an usher so that she could get her foot in the door and learn about the theater. It was how she went to Jacob's Pillow dance and had you know, choreography there, it was about how she learned all the different styles so she would be a well rounded dancer. It was about how she got ballet training and how she pieced it together with all the different teachers and how she networked and it was it was just, it's a great email. I still have it I still keep it I mean every once in a while I read it but subject line “how to do it.” I love it. It's just like She's like even telling me how to eat. She's like, just bring them up and after work, so you have energy to get to class, you got to go to work. And then you eat a muffin and then you go to class and you just you got to keep doing it. She was just really, really big on living that hustle life.
Moving to Denver & Starting Broche
B: So how did you transition from running her business to running your own?
J: Well, I moved to Denver, at some after about a year of all of that, my company that I was working for at the time, went remote, so I was able to do my job. I was a product manager at that time, I was able to do it remotely. So we moved to Denver, just kind of looking again for like a change. I tend to get apparently restless every few years I move around. Well, I wasn't New York for about nine years. So that's a while. So I moved to Denver. I then tried to reopen the same business. I was like private coaching is great. That's what we did. It's great to help people kind of supplement what they're working on, help them put the pieces together help them on a one on one setting. Because like I said, like we were talking about earlier. I love that Problem Solving aspect of it. I love to be able to get nitty gritty and be like, I know everything about your injuries, I know everything about your history, I know exactly how this is going to hurt your left knee and how we need to modify it. I love that sort of detailed work. So I wanted to open as private coaching here in Denver. But Denver doesn't have hourly rentals very easily for studio space like New York does. So it wasn't easy to just start accepting lessons. So that's how I ended up creating a actual space where I could take lessons and teach lessons. But then turns out Denver, the Denver community doesn't have an appetite for private lessons, because community is so strong here. People love to be able to see their friends and make relationships and experience their hobbies together with people whereas in New York, everyone's like, “I want to be by myself",” right? So a very different market where like here in Denver community is huge, and it grew and it grew to be huge approaches the community and the relationships that you build with each other and your teacher and so that was not so conducive to the private setting, so that we ended up doing group classes, but that was kind of how I started it here and why we have such small studios.
B: Did you find that after you sort of switched from the one on one coaching to the group's community-based classes, that your business just kind of skyrocketed, and people were showing up saying, How can I join?
J: Yep. Yeah, totally. The private lessons was two months of nothing. And then we opened the group classes in July. July 4th weekend, I think we opened the group classes, it's like, almost three years ago. And we opened two group classes. I wasn't even sure if we could fit more than one person in the studio. I was like, we could probably do it. Let's just try. So they signed up and came in. They filled up then we listed two more in the next month. And we listed two more in the next month and we listed two more the next month and by the end of the year, we had, you know, 20 or so dancers and looking back now that's not very many, but somehow I thought it was enough to quit my job so I quit my job in January at that point. That was right when you joined I think Bree, I think you joined in December and I quit my job in January.
Yeah, I think that was I think that's the timeline. And then and then there it went from there.
B: I showed up and you just quit your job.
J: You were the catalyst Bree. They're number 20. We're out.
B: So that must have been a pretty massive risk to take, like a lease for a studio space. And I mean, I, you transformed that into a studio. And then to slowly build it out with classes.
J: Yeah, it was it was intense. I have many, many, like literal pieces of paper of like, I don't know how many times I did the numbers like over and over again, how much will this cost? How much will this cost? How much will this cost? Can I afford it? I mean, luckily, in the beginning, I had a full time job still. So like, I was not totally without income trying to make this work and paying rent. Um, but yeah, it was. I mean, sometimes I think Like, why did I think this was a good idea? This was so risky. I didn't even do any market research first. Like, I didn't even go take class anywhere, study the community, I just like, the least opportunity came up. And I was like, Okay, let's do it. Let's go for it. Like who does that? I just felt in my heart that it was going to be people who wanted it.
B: Yeah. Well, and it turns out that you were very, very right. And I mean, you mentioned this all also, but even from my own experience, just seeing the sheer amount of connection and desire for community that people have. And not just in that sort of general Denver-te way, but just in a really specific ballet community way.
J: Yeah. It's amazing.
B: Yeah. And so when you I mean, obviously, it's growing and you're kind of doubling the number of classes you offer every month. When did you start bringing in instructors to support you?
J: I started training them in a I think February so like again quit in January. I started training them in February and they started teaching in the end of March of that year so I basically taught them how to teach our beginner class because that was something that I had done so many times and was really really comfortable with. You know, we start from like, literal zero right? literal. How do you count music? How do you stand up? How do you turn your feet out? What is the bar? Why are we using it like trying to put those pieces together that I had so much trouble with in the beginning? So I trained them for weeks, we trained for weeks, the three of them in the studio with me, Kristin, Jackie and Casey, we trained for weeks, like three hour sessions, we had many many sessions where I would teach them and they would teach me and they would teach each other and basically was like giving them all just this like massive teacher training of like of like, Okay, well if they if they have lots of curve they're low back, how should you deal with it? If they have hyper extended legs? How should you deal with it if they're in this situation, how should you deal with it if they are you know about music, here's how you skip it, like helping them see when to progress people and kind of go through all of that for the beginner levels.
B: And that's around the time that you open the second studio. Is that right?
J: July was the second studio. So yeah, that's about summer.
B: Yeah. Yeah, that summer.
J: I know crazy. So fast.
B: Yeah. So in your first year, you grew the business pretty organically. began hiring instructors train them and included them in the schedule and then grew to a second studio just after a year of being in business.
J: It's nuts. I think it was a year. I don't think it was a second year. I think it was the first year.
B: Yeah, that's, that's pretty phenomenal. That was really fast.
J: I know. It was crazy. I mean, I think I had a very strong appetite for the growth and pushed it. I mean, I could have waited longer and grown slower and all of that, but I was like, let's do it. Let's Let's satisfy this demand.
Fast-forward to COVID
B: Yeah, so I'm fast forwarding a little bit because COVID has changed so much about the way everyone is running their businesses. And when you were first kind of finding out details around what this would mean for Your studios, what was the first thing that you did or thought?
J: Well, we tried to stay open as long as possible. Because for me, we I mean, we even do classes on holidays. Like, for me, ballet is people's like safe space, it's where they are home, it's where they feel like when the world is falling apart, it's the one place that we have to be centered. And so it was really, really important for me to provide that for them while the world is crumbling around us, that we can still be here together.
“We tried to stay open as long as possible in the beginning when things were closing down. Ballet is people’s safe space, it’s where they are home, it’s where they feel like when the world is falling apart, it’s the one place that we have to be centered. And so it was really, really important for me to provide that for them while the world is crumbling around us, that we can still be here together.”
So we stayed open as long as possible with that, I mean, some, you know, many dancers didn't want to come weren't comfortable coming, whatever, that's totally fine. But for the people who were able and wanted to keep coming, we're so grateful that we were able to be open for so long because there was I mean, it's it's like your one place the world is going crazy and everything is just falling apart and you want somewhere to go. So we try to stay open for as long as possible. Finally, like in I don't know, March 15 or 20th or something along those lines. There was the order that we had that dance studios had to close dance studios were classified as gyms and gyms had to close and you know, then we had to close and I think You know, of course, we didn't know how long it was gonna last we thought it was going to be somewhat short in the beginning, perhaps naively, but we thought it was going to be somewhat short. And, and so I was really, really just determined to keep the team working. Because the team has, I feel a lot of responsibility for the team, the team relies on us for their livelihood. This is their community, this is their job, this is their work and to take that away is, I mean, that's a big deal. Like, that's a big deal that's like people's, this is people's work, right. So I felt a lot of responsibility for them for keeping them employed as long as possible. And so that was my first goal was like, how can we take the hours they're working and transition them to doing something else in this new world that is still providing value to the dancers still providing value to the community, but that allows them to keep working.
B: And by this time, the team has grown to like nearly a dozen people, right?
J: Yeah, yeah. Huge.
B: Okay. Okay. And so what was the How did you make the decision to create the online space and start dancing on zoom.
J: Well that one I, I think we're just seeing it starting to happen online, like, you know, reading in the Facebook groups and things that people are starting to take online classes. And it was like, well, I stopped teaching the studio, I think a little bit sooner so that I could do that, like, try the online stuff for the people who weren't comfortable coming to class because as I mentioned, there were several people who, you know, high risk or whatever, they don't want to come into the studio and, you know, be out in public. So, like, well, they're not able to dance, they need this some kind of sanctuary at home. Maybe I can try zoom classes. And I just felt like the thing to do everyone was doing it everyone was trying it. That decision felt like it was sort of the easiest of all.
B: What was what do you think was the hardest decision?
J: Well, I think the hardest decision was ultimately to not continue with the studios and at the end of it all, because It's, I mean, it's it's people's home. It's it's the team's home. It's the dancers’ home. It's my home. It's it's home for so many people. That was a really, really hard decision. Yeah, just insanely hard.
B: Yeah. I'm I know when you're in an announcement, you said it felt sudden for you and it probably felt something for the community. So what was the I guess decision making process? Was it like fighting to keep the studios open? Like until the very last possible moment?
J: Yeah. Yeah, it was. Um, so we were like the timeline right. So we closed in March, April, we were humming along we're like trying things trying you know, April, we still had enough savings and then in May, we got the government loan, was it April? I think we got it in May. I can't remember oh my gosh, I don't even know what date it is now. Whatever. But you have that for like eight weeks. Right? And so then that gives you a little bit more runway and once that runs out. You have to be self-sustaining again because April's already drained your business March has already drained your business, and then once the government loan wears off, you have to be making money. You have to be … you have to be whole again. But I think when I really thought we were going to be I really did I really thought we were going to be, even all the way until we sent out our reopening survey. Like hey guys, we're reopening come back in June.
And then as reality set in, it was like, we're going to be operating at 25 to 30% capacity not even just based on the people who wanted to come back but based on the requirements of having to space the classes apart for sanitization having to have only one person in our small studios only be able to have three in our big studios without any room for anyone else to come in. So, I mean, when a business is making it work at 100% and you cut that back to 30% it's like well, geez, how we're we're gonna we're gonna run out we're gonna we're gonna run out if we keep doing this and I think there was, I was kind of just thinking that once we reopen, it'll be fine. But then when you think about the actual reality of the situation, you get down to the nuts and bolts of who's coming back. when can they come in? What does the studio situation look like? You're just like, wow, we don't have time to keep. We don't have time to keep trying this stuff. We're we're out of time.
B: So when you were starting to look at, like how far you could stretch the government funding, was there an expectation or maybe a hope that that would be renewed or refilled?
J: That was a possibility. I don't think I thought it was going to happen immediately. I mean, it did end up getting stretched out longer. But by the time the news came, we're already like on our seventh week, so you can't stretch a week's worth of money out to 24 weeks, right? They did. They did end up extending it was initially eight weeks. And then I think six or seven weeks into, ours they were like, cool, you can use it for 24. I'm like, Well, I was already on pace to spend it all in eight weeks, because that's how you were supposed to spend it. So you can't stretch that last week out for now. 22 more weeks, right. That's obviously not going to work out. So I think there was like a thought that perhaps it could get renewed, there was a thought that perhaps the world would bounce back sooner than we all thought it would. There's the thought that, you know, it wouldn't be as devastating to a business to operate at that level of capacity, like you sort of picture like, I mean, how bad is it? Really? If you have a few less people in the studio? It's like, No, actually, it's not. I mean, not possible, right. I think if I was more willing to study those numbers, and really have those hard conversations with myself in May, it would have been less sudden, but I think there was just the hope and the optimism and the drive to keep pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, and then all of a sudden, it's like, Well, okay, this is a big deal.
B: Yeah. So as you are are looking ahead at I mean, the, as far as I know, classes are continuing for this next week until the end of June, before closing the doors. So what's happening in these last final days?
J: We have had so many wonderful dancers through the months before COVID and during COVID helps support us through this time. And so we are letting them come in and use what they have kind of prepaid to help support us through this time and have you know, a handful of last classes with each of us, so the dancers are coming in, obviously, we can only do private lessons because we bought our small spaces, so the dancers are coming in further spaced apart private lessons. And in our bigger studio, they can bring two of their friends if they want to. But that's, you know, of course, they're having to be spaced apart and all of that. So they're everyone's just coming in and it's it's been super, super fun to see everyone again, it feels like no time has passed yet so much time has passed. I love seeing what people have been working on at home. It's awesome. I love that people come in having worked on something super specific, like what they're super interested in. They come in with like a killer arabesque. I'm like, dude, Where'd that come from? And they're like, I've just been working on my back for three months. And I'm like, Great, awesome. We're like, someone can do the splits. And I'm like, Wow, you've been working on this and it's like, some super isolated thing that someone's really passionate about them, they finally have had the time in their life to work on. So it's actually like, super cool, you know, when we can find our wits about us to work on the things that are interesting to us that there are people, some people have done some really cool stuff over this period of time. Yeah.
“I love seeing what people have been working on at home. It’s awesome. I love that people come in having worked on something super specific, like what they’re super interested in. They come in with like a killer arabesque. I’m like, dude, Where’d that come from? And they’re like, I’ve just been working on my back for three months. And I’m like, Great, awesome.
Or like, someone can do the splits. And I’m like, Wow, you’ve been working on this and it’s like, some super isolated thing that someone’s really passionate about and they finally have had the time in their life to work on.
So it’s actually like, super cool, you know, when we can find our wits about us to work on the things that are interesting to us that there are people, some people have done some really cool stuff over this period of time.”
What’s next for Broche?
B: Well, I think if I have learned anything from your story, it's how quickly you're able to adapt and change. So just these different like, phases or periods in your life where you just go out something new and try it and figure it out and adapt. So as you are looking forward for this next chapter of your life like what are what are your big hopes or plans are what are you looking forward to most
J: I am looking forward to being able to serve a different kind of audience with a with ballet because I have met so many people through the online experience who live in the middle of nowhere and have literally no other option, right like in in certain places of the country in the world, there's like nothing Nothing for adults to do ballet, right? There's nothing at all. There's no way for them to get on pointe. There's no way for them to start ballet for the first time. There's no way for them to keep going every week and have this consistency in their life. So I think that that's super exciting to me to be able to serve this kind of market in a new way and help people who otherwise wouldn't have it.
And I think so many studios are going to go through the same thing that we went through. I mean, I hope I hope most of them make it through you know, with however they do, but I know that for many of the adult programs are getting sacrificed because if you only have studio space for a little bit, it's going to be the kid programs, I get the focus of the studio space because that's just the reality of the situation. And the adults are like extra or kind of after the after the fact because it's not the main business. So when you have only these limited hours, the studios are cutting the adult programs. So even if there was a studio, now there isn't a studio, and so I am looking forward to that. I'm looking forward to figuring out how to make it as close as we can to what you're getting in the studio. Obviously, it's not a studio, it's not 2000 square feet to leap around. It's not, you know, with your friends in person, but the whole world and how we make relationships is changing. And so I think we can figure out how to make relationships online, how to help people online in new ways, and how to help them through all of this. And I'm super anxious to do it all without my team. That's going to be really scary. It's been a long time since I've been back on my own without the support system of the team and the community. But you know, where the online is, it's such a small, it's such a small nascent program right now that it just can really only work with one person right now. And I'm anxious about it, but I'm excited for the future of it because I see so many people who previously had nothing available.
B: And thinking back over the last three years, and I mean really even longer, just like as you look at your ballet career, what do you think has been your biggest lesson learned that you're taking with you into this new chapter?
J: Um, let's see, I would say the biggest thing is really just letting go of what you think something should be. So the idea of “should” is terrible. It's so crippling, you're like, I should know how to do this already, I should already be able to do this. Why can't I do this.. you can do it, I should be able to do it. Or whatever you whatever you picture what something should be like, where I think, especially coming to terms with not being a professional like I should be doing this because I want to be a professional ballet dancer, I should be doing this because of this reason I should be able to do this because whatever because I've played music before whatever you think of in your head, why you should be able to do this already. And you know, right now it's like I should already have a fourth studio I should have I should be able to stay open through this. I should be able to make it through COVID I should be able to do it…. Like those are not helpful. really being able to shed that and be like, yeah, I should but I'm not. It's not where we're at the world has changed. I've changed everything is different and we just need to shed that, put that aside and look ahead and say like, what, but what what is cool about this, what is something that we can take that is awesome about this, that we didn't have before. So there's so many awesome things about it. I love that we can have people with kids dancing at home with their kids running around and have to worry about childcare is it's so many silver linings and I think finding silver linings within everything has been just a huge, a huge, huge change in my mindset, it's if it's not perfect, that's okay. It's still awesome.
“The biggest lesson is really just letting go of what you think something should be. The idea of “should” is terrible. It’s so crippling, you’re like, I should know how to do this already, I should already be able to do this. Why can’t I do this.. you can do it, I should be able to do it. We just need to shed that, put that aside and I think finding silver linings has been just a huge, a huge, huge change in my mindset, it’s if it’s not perfect, that’s okay. It’s still awesome.”
B: I love how optimistic that is. And like always, I feel like we could talk about this for hours and hours. And just kind of keep going. And but it's so it's, I mean for me, like I've heard your story and bits and pieces before but it's really cool to hear those newer parts and how it all fits together. Kind of like I mean, that's kind of what we're all craving in ballet really is just understanding how it all fits together so we can do the pieces of it that we really love and the pieces that we will enjoy the most.
J: It's so true. The future, the future is going to be great. We just have some mud to wade through in the meantime, but the future is going to be awesome. Very, very soon.
B: Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you again for inviting me to, to interview you and to hear your story and to talk through some of these newer pieces of information about what's happening with the studio and where you're headed next. I yeah, I really appreciate being a part of it.
J: Yeah, thank you so much for being on the show for interviewing me. It's funny to be on the other side of the equation, but it's great story, and I mix I'm really excited for the future. I'm optimistic. I'm not excited for the next six months, but I'm excited for the future as a whole and like looking ahead to where everything is going to go. So yeah.
B: We’ll have to do a follow up part two in like six to 12 months and see where we're at.
J: Yeah, definitely like what what what how has the world changed?
B: Exactly.
J: Well, thank you so much for being on the show.
B: Thank you again for having me.
