Broche Banter #15 -- Erica
Today on the show, we have Erica, an adult ballerina who is opening her own broche-inspired adult ballet studio in Rochester New York.
We get philosophical, covering everything from her start with ballet as a baby ballerina, to her very long hiatus from 6th grade until after the birth of her second child, to her journey back to the barre after on a quest for ballet technique, and most importantly, self-fulfillment.
Enjoy!
Julie: All right, Erica, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you on brush banter this week.
Erica: I'm excited to be here. This is gonna be fun.
J: I met you for the first time through our online program, which of course was born out of the COVID crisis. And now because become a super cool thing that we're doing. So it was really fun to meet you. You're all the way in Rochester and I'm all the way in Colorado. So it's been really fun to get to know you from across the country.
E: Yeah, I'm so like, the COVID thing out of the COVID thing. Like I'm so happy that that happened. Because we don't have anything like that here in Rochester. So it was a really nice blessing in disguise to kind of stumble upon Broche and your program and everything. So yeah, that's kind of happy that happened.
J: Yeah, Funny, isn't it?
J: So I'm excited to hear about your story you. You came in with clearly quite a lot of experience with following Which is sometimes unusual to find in in the adult world I've you said there's not always access for us to get technical training and all of that. So you tell me about how that's come about what where did it start? How did you get what you how'd you get your ballet foundation?
E: Okay. I it's a big question. Like, there's, there's so we've talked so you know that like there's big gaps in my training. So I originally started dance young. Um, I believe I was four. And I started as a little baby ballerina and went through, went into like a competition dance school in LA or no, so I'm from downstate New York more like a little town called Hopewell junction. If you don't know Hopewell junction, you might know Poughkeepsie, New York. If you don't know Poughkeepsie, New York, you might know Westchester. So down there.
J: Cool. That explains your accent.
E: I get that a lot up here too. Apparently I say words really weird.
J: Yeah, I have a friend from Poughkeepsie. I'm like, yeah, that that explains it that makes a lot of sense.
E: Okay, so there it is.
E: So I grew up in this competition style dance school, which I loved. I made some of the best friends that I had. I really got a lot of self confidence. I took ballet and jazz, which were my first loves, loved them. But when I got to be invited onto the competition team, I had to take tap. It's not my favorite. I respect tap. It is hard. I was actually pretty good at it because this school was like a tap school and So I learned it. Not my favorite, but I'm glad I learned it. So, went through all competition stuff. They're performing recitals up until I was about Middle School. So like sixth grade, I started to notice that once I hit sixth grade and you go and sit, try and find people to sit with in the cafeteria, and none of your friends are the same as the ones as your dance friends, because I spent, like my entire day at the dance studio. I loved it. So I kind of got disenchanted with dance, and figured, oh, I need to make friends in like school because I don't know anybody.
So I stopped dance.
Sixth grade, it stinks
And looking back, that is my biggest regret out of everything I really wish I hadn't. So I took a huge hiatus and I tried to fill it with things. I tried soccer, I tried swimming, I tried modeling, I did pageants, marching band. I ran the gamut on things to fill this void of dance. And I didn't, I did a little bit when I hit college, I was on the dance team. But I didn't major in dance. I never thought of it as a career path for me. I never thought I was good enough, had the right body type, feet, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then after I had my second child, so I was 29, I decided that I need to get back into dance by That time we were out here in Rochester. I married two kids. And I needed to find me again. So found found an adult program and it was no easy task. I don't know how long I looked for an adult program and not an adult program that's like, hey, Come dance with these amazing 16 year olds, and you're going to look silly, because you're a real adult, not a 16 year old adult. So, found my teacher Mary, and it was real adult. And we started with ballet and then we added on some other classes. And yeah, then it went from there. So I I'm very humbled for you to say that I have a good ballet training because I never I didn't do ballet intensive. I didn't come from like a classical ballet school. here in Rochester. We have Rochester City Ballet and their school which is the Draper school. And like as an adult right now, like I look at that school and like, Oh, I wish I could have taken classes like that, like it's real, like classical school and they they all have to wear the same color leotards and they're all at the bar, and it's very, like, proper dance, and I never got that. And I still, I guess at this point, I I still want to be able to go through that.
So yeah, so I I've gone through teachers that have helped me with my technique. But it took a lot of work, a lot of work.
J: I think I think there's two points on this. The story obviously just asked me where it all started is like 100 questions all wrapped up in one right. But I think one first point I want to make is around quitting when you're young.
And I think so many people who I speak with regret that decision, but the people who I speak with who danced through that period of time, up until they were the kind of teenagers also had a very different experience and took a really, really long time, oftentimes to come back around to it at your age as well. Because that end game is really, really, really difficult when you're a teenager. And that process of going through it when you're a teenager can actually turn you off to it.
Whereas you were fueling your love for it for those years. Whereas then the people who did it through the high school years are actually having to rekindle their love later because they were disenchanted by body image issues or competition issues or whatever happens when you're a teenage girl, right? It's like complicated. teenage girls are complicated, and then you put ballet competition into the mix, and you put that whole complex on top of it.
And so I always just, I always think it's a blessing in disguise to have had that experience of quitting and then coming back to it later because you now have just a pure love for it and a taste for it and yearning for it, versus having like gone through that and had a potentially rough experience, not that there aren't people who've had amazing experiences through those years, but there's so many who had hard experiences and then have a difficult relationship with ballet because of it.
E: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that too. And because as I was getting into middle school, then things you start to notice things as you know, you're you're becoming more mature and you're starting to see the politics and who's favorites and stuff like that.
And as a when I was younger, I was never like, I wasn't like the star like I wasn't somebody who could do tricks. Like a cartwheel was like Yeah, but suddenly, who these other girls that are doing like back walkovers and aerials, and like these fantastic things that they just were able to do. I was not that so I didn't get that type of attention.
I also didn't have this ballet physique. I was I was tall for my age. So I'm five seven, which for dancers is still tall, so I didn't, you know, I'm throwing into my body and I'm gangly. I just look awkward, so I didn't have that cute like, Oh, I'm tiny and cute, and I can like a few these cute little things. So I didn't have that going for me.
But I was a solid dancer. So if somebody was out, they got sick or hurt or whatever. I picked up choreography really fast. So I was always kind of called in to be up somebody out. Let's get Erica in there, she can feel that spot. So I started to notice those things though, as I got to 12 years old and I was like, Oh, I don't like that they always choose, you know, so and so because she can do this. You know, they put this little one up in the front because she's little and big, tall, gangly. Erica gets to be in the back because she's tall.
J: Yes, exactly.
I think it's the other point you made that I find interesting and especially relevant to us adults is like, wanting the real thing wanting formal training, wanting proper ballet.
These are words that we put on ourselves and on our training that we say we can't have good technique because it wasn't properly learned. And we weren't wearing a black leotard and pink tights and no skirt. And so therefore, we don't have ballet technique, or whatever it is. And I think I think that's, I think that I feel it too. I get it. I feel it too, because we want to have had that life and live that life but like as adults our training is so different: we have a body that's had babies, we have a body that's been in car accidents. We have bodies that have been strained and broken and bruise and been sitting in chairs and a mental state that's lost mothers and fathers and friends and loved ones. And we have a different, we have a different body in a different mind. And I think real ballet for us is like becoming ourselves and becoming ourselves through ballet. And so it's, I'm curious, your thoughts on that, because I totally get where you're coming from. But I find that that phrase to be funny that we put that on ourselves.
E: Yes. And I'm not saying it's a good phrase for me to like, put on myself. It's just this is how I feel. And like, I'm so yes, like, I want like you just see those pictures and you know, and you see their lines, you're like, oh, as an adult right now, I could do that. I could be there and I could understand the training and I could understand why I was doing these things when I was that age. This is boring.
But like, what, as an adult now, I so I also teach I teach, I get to teach kids, which I love teaching kids. I really love teaching adults. With you like how you said, we have adult minds, adult bodies, we've been through things. So like, the material that we give, like as choreography or anything like that. You can see the adults get it, they get it in their soul, because like, they're like, Oh, I know what it's like to have lost somebody, I know what it's like to have not been given this chance. And they get it where if you were to give something like this to younger girls or boys, they just haven't had those experiences yet. So, um, it's very different. I love the way that you teach. For a brochure. It gives me that feeling like I'm not missing anything and I guess maybe it's not the black leotard pink tights, no skirt. It's the you're paying attention and being like, Oh, no. Your feet need to be turned out more knees over your toes. You're not just being like, that's good enough, right? No, no, that's what I think we're missing. Now. There's a lot of adult drop in classes. But not many that are like, no, I really want to help you.
J: So I think it's hard to understand why we want to be helped. Why do adults want to be helped? I think, for whatever reason, in ballet, we feel like adults shouldn't care to improve their technique or don't care to improve the technique. And I don't think this is the fault of anyone specifically. It's just we have a hard time understanding why would you want to be good at this if you're not going to become pro? Because that seems like such a single minded track? And I'm curious your thoughts on that. Why do you want to be good at it? Why Why do you care that I tell You that your legs aren't turned out enough. Why is that important to you?
E: That's a good question. Um, okay, let's try to think through it. Um, so for me, I and I guess maybe most answers we have this certain personality type, right? Maybe it's a drive maybe it's a Type A it's whatever you it's a perfectionist. I don't know. I'm I like the challenge of it. And for me, I am maybe it's because I was a dancer. In the beginning. I see other dancers and I'm like, I can do that. I just need a teacher to trust in me or take interest in me and push me because they maybe I maybe I want somebody to see something in me. Be something special in Like, Oh, she still has it. Maybe we all want that, you know, to just kind of be just chosen, I don't know. Have somebody look at us and go, Wow, she's got something. And maybe that's leftover from childhood stuff, where maybe we didn't get that or we did get it and we want it again because that affirmation feels so good. So, I don't know. I don't know what drives me for that, but I do. I have been like no addition. Like, give me the corrections because I know if you're giving me corrections, it's because you're watching dance. You know. I used to have a teacher, and I'm sure a lot of us had that. You know, she'd go down the line and give us corrections or safe Something and if she skipped over you and said nothing. That's no good. Yeah. Like, you could go to the person before you and like, fix them and be like, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. skip over, you just kind of look at you and move on. And then the next person, she's like, Oh, this is beautiful. This is lovely. And then you're standing there going, what did I do? I did something clearly. So yeah, I don't know.
J: The, the way we the way we teach ballet is always so interesting to see in comparison with other things that we teach and learn as, as adults. So like painting, right? How do you teach an adult, how to paint or how to draw or whatever it is? It's so interesting to think about the the verbiage and the expectations and all of that is actually super important that if you come into it, the expectation that an adult it can't improve at something, then you won't tell them how to improve at it. And I think a lot of it comes from From a protective nature where we know that folly is sort of dangerous, and if you don't do it, well, you could hurt your knees and you can hurt your back and all that stuff. And so it's like, like adults are Faberge eggs, we don't want to break them. We don't want to tell them to turn out too far, because then they're gonna hurt themselves or we don't want to get them on point because we're afraid they're going to snap their feet off or whatever it is. But I think I think you're right that we have a desire as individuals at this point in our life, we have a desire as an individual to excel at something and we want to accelerate our career and that's not weird, and we want to excel at being good. Parents and spouses and that's not weird, but for some reason, it's weird to want to excel up ballet.
E: Yeah, um, I. So I still have you know, my friends will ask me like, Oh, so you're still dancing. That's cute. And I'm like, yeah, and some people I won't tell. Oh, there goes my headphone. Some people I won't tell like how much I am into it. Because it's like, oh, you take little classes here and there and, you know, and I get weird questions sometimes I'm, most of the people are very, very supportive. And I've met a lot of people that are like, ah, I wish I could take dance like, yes, you can. You can, there's, there's no, there really shouldn't be a limit. Really think, you know, as long as for the most part that we're healthy individuals and I'm not saying like healthy like as an age as a weight as a height. But you know that we're not completely going to hurt ourselves. You can take dance and you can Get to wherever you want to with it. Um, does it take some work? Yep. Um, is that is easy maybe as if you were younger? Hmm, probably not, because we're not maybe as flexible anymore. We also have other things going on in our lives, right? It's jobs, dogs, animals, husbands, wives, whatever. But I really, really believe that we can do it too. And I, I don't I never wanted anybody to say no to me, just because of my age. So, I kind of carry that along with me. Um, just because you're an age doesn't mean that you're not strong enough to do something. You know, whatever it may be. It might not even be dance. It could be you want To be a rock climber Cool, let's train the right way. And I can show you how to do this. And then you can take that and do that. So I think it's just about giving somebody the benefit of the doubt.
J: Yep. It's really, really more than anything where, if you believe that you can't touch your toes, therefore, you can't take ballet. I'm like, well, then yes, you can't take ballet because you believe you can't touch your toes. But I couldn't touch my toes until I had the Big Valley for four years. Does that mean I wasn't taking ballet? No, it just means I was never very flexible and then became flexible. It doesn't mean that I wasn't doing ballet until then. It was just, it took me a while to become more flexible. It took me a lot of work. But that's always the thing. The biggest thing I hear what I say I'm the I own a ballet. She's like, Oh, I could never do that. Because I can't touch my toes. Like, well, I mean, but the thing is, you'll be able to touch your toes after you start doing it. Like it's not a prerequisite. People think that you know, you have to be good enough to start. You have to be a better person before you can start something or like once I'm a better person, all wear that dress or once I'm a better person, I'll go take yoga or once I can touch my toes, I will do this and people even contact me and they say like, Can I, I need to get in shape before I come to your studio? I'm like, No, but the studio is here to help you get in shape. Like we're you don't need to become a different person before you can begin this journey.
E: Right? It's part of it's part of the journey. It's Come as you are. And, you know, we'll take this journey together, but you don't nobody starts off with perfect everything and is just like, Oh, I'm dancer and ready to go. No, you know, it's, um, somebody, one of my friends said to me, like, oh, I've been to ballets, and I've seen this and I'm like, I don't even know how they do that. And I was like, well, you got to think about it this way. That's their job. Like if you're a nurse, and every day, you are helping people, treating people People blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you've learned all this stuff, you've gone to school for it, and now it's your job. This is what they've trained for, you know, so that's why at age 20, whatever, you know, they're up on their toes, and they can kick their heads and, you know, invert themselves into all these crazy things. Um, but that doesn't mean that you can't start to do that.
Because you know, you haven't done that doesn't mean that you can't take up this wonderful hobby. take it seriously and take it as far as you want to.
J: That's a good analogy. I like that. I can't imagine how a brain surgeon knows how to get in there and could crack someone's head open and do surgery on it. I can't I can't fathom that as a concept. Right. But yeah, like they just pop out as a brain surgeon. You know, I think that's a really good analogy because we don't find those things to be odd. We don't think we don't sit there and wonder Oh, they must be a natural brain surgeon. We understand the process by which They get to be it. We're not like, Oh, they naturally cut people's heads open and like they just naturally did that we would never assume that. But somehow we're like, that person is naturally flexible, or that person naturally stands on their toes or whatever.
E: Yeah, I don't know why we do that with like dance or like, or even like singers too. It's the same thing. Oh, they have a natural voice. Some of them, yes. But also, they've also taken, you know, hours and years of training.
And a lot of them started singing young, they loved it, and they kept doing it. So therefore, they've actually been practicing constantly since they were very young children. But I think part of our job as dancers is to make it look easy and make it look natural. And so I think it's sort of our own darn fault for like doing a good enough job. I always say our job is to trick the audience into thinking they can do it when they walk out of the place, right that it should look, you know, it should look natural, it should look easy. And then we wonder why they think it's easy.
I was taking a class with you the other night and you had this crazy frappé a combination going on. It was so fast and frappe days are not a thing, but I'm trying to get better at them. And my husband is sitting in the bed watching me. And then the prep are done. They're done with the combination. And I'm sweating. I have got a towel. I'm like, oh my gosh. I mean, he goes, it looks easy. I could do that. And I was like, I'm gonna leap over there. Just beat you up. But at the same time, it was kind of like a compliment, like, easy.
J: You're like there's space at this bar. So, right? You want to come over here and join me. That's right. We're at home. You're welcome to join me anytime you want. Ah, you're right though it is a compliment if you do your job, right. If you do your job right as a dancer, they should leave thinking that they can do it and that's and that is infuriating on the one aspect because it does sort of feel like it belittles the work that you had to do to get there but on the other hand, as you say it is it is truly a company It means that you had a smile in your face, it means you made it look effortless. And therefore they think that they can do it too. Because Gosh, if it was hard, you would be grimacing doing that.
E: Yes. Yeah. So yeah, I You're right. We probably do a little bit this to ourselves, you know, make it look so easy. And you hear that you've always heard that in class, right? Like, make it look effortless. Yes. It doesn't hurt at all right? I think we've been trained that way, too. Oh, I'm on my toes. And this doesn't hurt at all. Everything's fine.
J: Well, I was I was a powerlifter for about a year and a break from ballet. And my coach would always put more weight on the bar, and I'm like, this is really heavy. And he's like, well, you're smiling. So you don't seem like you're working that hard. I'm like, No, no, it's just it's just that when I work hard, I supposed to smile. So this is how I work hard and the muscles in my face are helping me you don't you understand? never actually be able to read my signals because he's like, you're supposed to be making a face. You're supposed to be grunting and I'm like, Not grunts I'm sorry, I will not run.
E: No, we're supposed to smile and I just smile bigger and look up more when it hurts even more because I'm thinking to myself, just 10 more seconds and more seconds.
J: That was a funny translation of sports.
J: What do you have your eyes set on next? Or is the journey what you have your eyes set on? What does what what do you what are you thinking about as far as like what you're looking forward to in your dance journey?
E: So as you know, but maybe not everybody else. I have started my own studio.
Not something that I ever really wanted to do. I've seen studio owners become disenchanted with dance and dealing with like the monetary side of things and I would see it kind of dead in their spirit. So I always want to to just remain as a teacher, but your program in broche, and everything like that has inspired me to do something similar out here in Rochester, New York, we don't have anything like that we have dropping classes.
We have a pretty big artistic community here. But nothing that's specifically for adults nothing that really gives them what they want. And I've heard this in with the students that I teach now that are adults, they want more, give me more corrections. I want to learn more. I'm so I recently launched my website, which has turned us all dance and it is very much based on your curriculum. Um, and like it or not, now you're my mentor. You didn’t sign up for that, but you're now so I'm hoping to replicate the results that you have out here.
And give the dancers adult dancers out here the chance to get to do what I got to online with you and that I'm going to continue to do. So that starts in September. I'm right now finishing up the website and going to do registration and classes and all that kind of stuff.
And then this is a little crazy. And you guys probably you're gonna think that I'm crazy. And it's just this pipe dream that I've had in my head for a little bit. I would love to then take this a step further and make a company. I would love to have an adult company. And when I say adult, I mean people that have other things going on. It doesn't have to be like, Oh, they work a job and they dance. But they they're a serious dance student and they want to perform, but they also are maybe their mom or they volunteer or they take care of their elderly parents or they do have a job or You know, there's these two aspects of them. So that's kind of my pipe dream is to have a company of adults that can do these classical works, because they're still serious students, but also show people that you can do this too. You can relate to me on stage because I'm an adult, and maybe I'm not the perfect ballerina body, you know, I'm an everyday person. And I hope this would inspire more people to find their passion, whether it's dancer or what else and give people confidence and maybe be able to relate. I'm certainly not trying to, like get rid of the professional realm or say that there's no need for it. I love going to a professional ballet. But I think it would be cool to show that so adults can do it too. So that's my My pipe dream.
J: That sounds so amazing. I think there's a, like we've talked about, you know, adults bring something special to the table and it's not usually the stereotypical ballerina, but we have such a rich breadth of experience to offer and a passion and a lifetime of experience to, to share. I think there was one performance I went to here in Denver, that was adult an adult recital and I always think recital, sort of is too small of a word to describe how much heart we put into it. But regardless, that's what they called it. And there was this one company of all people who had Parkinson's, and they dance some people could only dance in chairs, and some people were standing and it was very simple choreography and I mean, he was the only piece in the show that moved me to tears because they were dancing about having lost their spouse. I might Cry right now. But there was like an empty chair sitting in the, there was an empty chair sitting on the stage. And it was clearly representative of someone who they've lost. Each of them had, you know, lost them in their life and you're just like, Ah, geez, you know, it just it was about the relationship of the grandparent to their kids to their spouse who they've lost. And it was just like, the dance moves weren't. I mean, the dance moves were so simple. But the expression they brought to it was just like, dang. Wow, that could relate.
E: Yeah, you could relate. And I felt like it was able to help a lot of people in the audience feel that emotion. Understand it relate to it yet. It was just like, wow, they said something right. And that's what it that's what it means.
Yes. Yeah. Like I said, I will probably never be able to do an aerial. But we'll just we'll set that aside. And kudos to the if you can do one. That's awesome. Okay, no problem with that, but I know As an adult, I know that I bring experience to the table. And when somebody says, Okay, this is what this piece is about, and I can pull from my own experience. Whereas maybe if you're younger, you just you haven't had a chance to have those experiences yet. Um, but yeah, I think adults just have this, this emotion, this depth that they can bring to whether it's a character role, or just a movement, because there's something underneath it. It's not just put your arm out. There's a reason you know, ah, so yeah, I think we can do it all.
J: Well, anything you think you can you will that's that's basically what it is.
J: My last question for you maybe a little bit more philosophical. I mean, ballet as we know, as an adult, it's actually quite philosophical in the ballet part of it is quite, quite small in terms of the grand scheme of things. But you I want to go all the way back to when you mentioned that you decided it was time to find yourself after your second kid. Now one thing I hear a lot from people is that they either feel guilty finding themselves or feel like they're taking too much time for themselves or feel like they should be doing more for others and not for themselves. Do you? How did how did finding yourself help other people? Does it help other people? Why is it worth it? What? What maybe Can you can you share about that experience that makes it worth it for people?
E: All right, um, so with my first and second child, I had postpartum depression after I had my kids, and that was really, really hard to get through. And since then, I've been diagnosed with anxiety, I struggle with anxiety and stuff like that and I see somebody now and everything like that, but I At that time, I wasn't really sure what was going on with myself. I was still fairly new to when I moved here. Like, I still didn't feel like Rochester was home. Like I still feel like oh, I'm not from here. So I didn't have close girlfriends. I knew my husband, and he's my best friend, but like, you know, sometimes you need some girlfriends. Okay. Um, so I didn't have that I didn't have like this group of moms where I could like, go and be like, Is this normal? Is this not normal?
So like I said before, when I had dance in my life, I made some of my best friends at dance. So I decided I was like, Okay, I need to do this. And what's the worst that happens? I get back to dance and I just enjoy dancing again. Okay, or I get back to dancing, and I meet people that are like minded and you know, so that was the thought going into it. If I take some time for myself, I will be a better mom. I'll be a better wife, mom. I won't be tense. I won't be snippy. Um, and that thought didn't come easy. It wasn't like, ah, I feel fine with this. No, it was something that I literally had to say to myself, like fake it till you make it like, this is going to help not just me but my kids. A mantra that I had to have like, it's okay to take time for yourself. And yes, now I actually believe that. Now I I see it, and my kids are able to say, well, Mom, you're a lot happier. And that kind of breaks my heart. Because obviously there was a time where they saw me as Not, um, and my husband, I think he definitely he doesn't walk on eggshells.
The mom guilt is real. The woman guilt is real where you know, you're like, Oh, I'm going off and just dancing, not solving like world hunger or I'm not, you know donating my time to help the baby puppies. No, I'm dancing, but it's what I needed. And it's helped my family.
And I hope that's enough. And I just kind of have to believe that that's enough. There are some people that are going you just get together with your friends and you dance around in your tutus. Yeah, yep, we do. I don't come home, and I'm not miserable. And so hopefully it helps my little bubble here.
J: Yeah, I think that's, I that's the story of so many and the and we are all afraid to take that time for ourselves. But what we don't realize is the impact it has on others. So you mentioned even just your family and so you don't know what the impact is when they go out into the world because they're no happier were with you and with with the situations and you don't know, like, you know, if you think about that, you know, I took time for myself to make the studio in my own image and how I wanted it to be, and that might have seemed selfish, but now you're creating a studio and now we've inspired Jessica here in Denver to create a studio and it's just radiating out into the world and you don't know where it's going to lead. You don't know what your happiness is going to inspire someone else. Because as you mentioned, in terms of performing and why performing is important, important. It's like you might inspire someone to follow their dreams. That is huge. Yeah.
E: Yeah, I think it's it's, I think everybody needs to look inward just a little bit. You know, you don't always have to make big plans change big things. Just helping yourself. Like you said it radiates and you feel it. And then people around you feel it. And I think it just starts to change things. Yeah. If I hadn't stumbled across you, then who knows? where it would have gone, you know?
So, making yourself happy is very important. might sound selfish at first. But, yeah, somebody's out there and they're watching you, you know? So, maybe it's somebody young, maybe it's somebody your age and go wow, if they can do it. Why can't I?
J: I think that is big. Amazing. What a great way to end the episode. Thank you so much for being on here. I hope everyone listening is inspired that if we can do it, they can do.
E: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. This was wonderful.
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