Broche Banter #18 -- Mai
Today on the show, Mai joins me all the way from Saudi Arabia to talk about her journey with ballet.
We talk about her passion for exercise starting way back from watching Jane Fonda VHS tapes as a child, to how she created time for the things she loved while studying abroad for med school in London, and finally beginning ballet once she returned home to Saudi Arabia.
Enjoy!
““All these little things that we enjoy through life. Like we should, like, make time for it. And we should like schedule them because this is what makes us go through the hardship of life.””
Julie: Welcome, Mai, to the show. I'm so excited to get to chat with you today.
Mai: Me too. Me too. Thank you for having me.
Julie: It's so fun to finally get to hear your story. So we've been Instagram followers for quite a while of each other. And now you're in our online studio. We just finished class together. That's why we have a little bit of a glow. We just finished dancing together in class online. And you are calling me from the other side of the world. Talk to me about where you're from where you are right now.
Mai: So I come from Saudia Arabia, and right now it's almost 8pm. Whereas at your side, it's a little morning still.
Julie: Yeah, 11am.
Mai: Yeah. So but like Thanks. Thanks to the internet like it seems Like we're still in the same place, and we share the same interest and have something in common that like, you know, brought us together.
I've been following you for quite a while been fascinated by like all the work, the amazing work you put towards like teaching others to like to perform ballet and you know gain confidence and overcome the fear of you know being in ballet shoes or even pointe shoes. Just calling calling yourself an adult ballet instructor has brought so much courage from me and from I'm sure from other other students to come forward and you know, try your class and maybe……
You know, the name “adult” seems to be a little bit forgiving. So that it's okay, like you're welcome to join. And you know, just test yourself. No pressure at all. As long as you're having fun, you're getting a good workout. Like there is no commitment, no pressure whatsoever. And, yeah, the most important thing is to enjoy, I think.
Julie: It is very important. And I and I, I obviously agree with so much with what you just said, You know, I think there's so much with being an adult dancer that's different than being a child dancer or a professional dancer where we want to be better at this, you know, we chose ballet because we love the purity of the art form, and we want to improve and be better at it. But as you said, it's really important that we meet ourselves with kindness along the way and that we go through this journey knowing that it's going to be a challenge and that we're doing it together and that it's okay if it's not perfect on the first day and it's going to get there one day, but like it's going to be a process along the way.
Mai: Exactly.
How did your love of ballet begin?
Julie: You started recently though. You started ballet recently.
Mai: Yeah, I started only last year. So I don't know how like far back You want me to go into my story. But yeah, I was ….
Julie: Why? What? Why do you like ballet? What? What got you started? Have you been thinking about it since you were a kid? Have you been? Did it just come to you as a whim? Why did you start?
Mai: So let's agree to something like there is always something magical about like, ballet performances and ballerinas. So I'm sure like every girl has ever like dreamt of being on ballet shoes at some point.
““So let’s agree to something like there is always something magical about like, ballet performances and ballerinas. So I’m sure like every girl has ever like dreamt of being on ballet shoes at some point. ”
”
So I grew up watching ballet shows and I was like, Oh my God, I really want to like You know BE in there, but as coming from my background, Saudi Arabia at that point like 30, maybe 35 years ago or even like a bit less than this, physical education was not a part of the the school curriculum. So I was not exposed to being physically active apart from you know, going to the playground and playing with other kids. Nothing was taught to me at school, so only at like, I'd say seven or eight I started like watching like random aerobics videos on VHS and like trying to imitate it, and I think this is what where I got I started to be familiar with exercising to the music?
Julie: Were they ballet-related workouts?
Mai: No, no, no, no, no. It's not even ballet related like, like, old VHS like Jane Fonda style aerobics.
Julie: From America?
Mai: Yeah, yeah.
Julie: Are they in English? Or were they translated?
Mai: Yeah, they were in English actually.
Julie: Did you speak English at that point? Did you learn English from a young age?
Mai: I did not. I only started I was doing a lot of like personal effort from my side, like listening to English songs and trying to translate words by words. But actually in English, I've only got to learn at age. I'd say 12 or 13.
Julie: Fascinating.
Mai: Which at that point, I had like a really good background about English. I was like, the best students like in the English class.
Julie: Well you had been listening to music and taking Jane Fonda workouts and like you hear the words you know, like the left a right foot, like the anatomy maybe?
Moving away college, starting Zumba and developing a passion for movement
Mai: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so that's it and I finished school nothing major happened in regards with ballet or any other workout or exercise. And then I went to medical school to another city, which was a little bit more open than the the previous village I was, you know, living at.
So I think I got more exposed to like different styles of workout I was living in the dorms and I formed my own circle of friends who like exercise regularly every day and I was always needing like them and classes. So I think that's the where I knew that I really, I'm really passionate about exercise, especially to music. But still, like nothing happened, like formally in that sense.
I finished med school, and then I got to travel to London to do my post grad. So I did a Master's in Public Health degree and I followed it with a PhD in epidemiology.
Julie: You’ve been in school for a long time!
Mai: Yeah, yeah. So like, I only finished recently.
Julie: Yeah, that's a lot of years of schooling. I’m adding them up in my head, and that’s a long time of schooling.
Mai: Yeah. Yeah. So while I was studying I did, I did the exercise to music certification. Oh, and yeah.
Julie: Was that in London?
Mai: Yes. Yeah.
Julie: Was that Zumba?
Mai: Exercise to music was something else and then I followed it with Zumba class, symbolism, the certification, and I taught Zumba as a freelancer for quite a long time.
Julie: Wow.
Mai: And that was like my first passion like I'm still passionate about like music and Latin dance Latin inspired dance. So yeah. And so I was like helping myself as a student, working as a freelancer and then I followed it with other courses as well, sports related, but like Zumba and dancing had their special space in my heart.
Julie: Did you teach Zumba in English?
Mai: Yes, I taught in English.
Julie: Was that hard? Was that hard to do?
Mai: No, I mean, by the end of like med school, I was like fluent in English.
Julie: Okay. I can imagine using different kinds of words in a different language would be complicated.
Mai: Yeah. But I mean, like, I think coming from them the medical background made it like a lot easier for me to like, get my head around like the anatomy of the body, which muscles are working like how to, you know, avoid certain types of injuries and stuff like these.
Julie: Fascinating
Mai: Yeah.
With a medical background, which muscles do you find interesting?
Julie: Are there any particular muscles that you find the most interesting when you're combining that knowledge with your dancing where it's like engage whatever muscle that you find super interesting.
Mai: Yeah, I could talk about actually the turnout muscle. I did not know that. Like these muscles existed even like, what is turnout? Like what do you mean by turnout? Like for me when I started ballet, like this seems a bit, you know, difficult to grasp. But then like, you know, with time trying to, you know, take different classes and taking classes, especially for like strengthening the turnout muscles, these muscles started to like appear and I started to, you know, feel them and I was like, actually, yeah, I can actually work on them and make them make them stronger.
Julie: Yeah. So what would you say now that you've worked on them? Can you name what you would call them? Like, like, what what would you call them in that grouping? I always love the anatomy myself. So I'm curious, like, from your perspective, from combining the medicine with the ballet, like are there five other eight what would you call them?
Mai: I think the muscles the most responsible for the turnout are the external rotators for the hips. So whichever group of muscle like that involves the glutes muscle and I’m sure a lot of like, very small, tiny muscles. I can't like remember the like the names of them on the top of my head. But uh, yeah, they are quite small but they do a lot of work.
Julie: Yeah, I think I think you make an interesting point. I think we when we start learning ballet we think that turnout muscles are like mystical or like these muscles that are hard to find or impossible to find. Or some people have them and you don't have them where they're like these weird magical muscles. But when you actually look at the anatomy, it's like no, they're like they're like actual muscles like you can strengthen them like any other muscle if you can learn to bicep curl more, why can't you learn to turn out more or turn out? Better you can actually like strengthen the physical muscle set involved.
Mai: That's exactly exactly yeah.
Returning to Saudi Arabia — and starting ballet!
Julie: So okay, so back to your story. So you're in London still, you're teaching for Zumba, you're in your post grad, you're doing your all the remaining schooling. Did you stay in London after that?
Mai: I only remained in London whilst I was doing my post grad. So that was six years. After which, after I finished, I came back to Saudi Arabia with, like, so much passion for sports and dancing and exercise that I wanted to share with everyone. However, like, you know, I knew that teaching exercise is not my main is not my main job is my hobby. So I, to be honest, I had to, you know, choose whether to work in medicine. Or, like teach epidemiology, or like devoting my time to exercise, and I didn't choose one over the other, but I realized that I can do both at the same time. So my full time job would be teaching at the university, and like, I'm able to still do freelancing if I wanted, or teach, like few hours a week, that doesn't matter. But I still give the priority to my work as a professor in the university.
Julie: Yeah. Then you started ballet at some point in this process.
Mai: Yes. So I worked in a lot of dancing studio, which offered in London, which offered Zumba classes, and I've been to pineapple studios so many times. And so a lot of like dance classes going on, like back to back all the time. And I used to see ballet in the schedule, and I was like, ah, but I don't see any kids, like how come there are no kids like there are still adults doing ballet. So but it never occurred to me that I should try it because I still had this like not fear, but I'd say like a wall or like fear of the unknown. Like I we all know that ballet is advised to be started at a younger age because that's when your like joints are more flexible and you're like, able to, like teach them to do certain things. But what would I actually do in a ballet class? That seemed like, you know, that didn't make any sense to me.
You know, it's funny because I had the opportunity back then, to try but there was like something in my head that told me like, maybe it's not the thing for you.
Julie: Yeah.
Mai: Yeah, that's it. And then I came back. And only last year I was doing yoga at a yoga studio. And I saw some ladies coming out of there like leotards and I was like, What were they doing inside in a yoga studio? And I realized that they were taking ballet class with a different instructor. And I had a chat with the instructor, and she's like, Yeah, please come along, and you can like try I was like, Are you sure? It's not like too late for me to try to like, No, no, I think you're gonna have fun you just come and try and there's nothing to lose.
So I did it and I try that my first class with like the little ballerinas, I was like the eldest in that group, and like everyone else was between like four or five, six years. And I was like, oh, it seems a bit, you know, a bit weird, but I got over myself and I was like, You know what? I was just gonna have fun and I'm gonna enjoy and see what it is. And that's it. I got hooked. And I've been practicing since then.
Julie: What is it like to what our dance classes like in, in Saudi Arabia? It's a whole different side of the world. Talk to me about what it's like in class What? What kind of people are going What was it like?
Mai: Oh, this interesting question.
Julie: Like are people wearing leotards and tights? Are there men in your classes or …?
Mai: So to start with, like, gyms normally are separate, like, males and females are separated. So we can basically for the people who prefer to be modest, they can do whatever they want. I mean, modest outside of the gym, so they can wear whatever they want inside the gym. So we I mean, as adults, we have the option to wear leotards if we wanted and or like just leggings and T shirt, but obviously leotards looks so much nicer on ballet so we choose to wear that.
And yeah, I mean like we have a really nice structured ballet class. And I think we use the RAD syllabus, yeah, the instructor use the RAD syllabus. So we usually start the class with Russian conditioning on the floor, and then we move to the barre like warming up and start the class normally as like you normally conducted with pliéa and tendus then whether developpés or grand battements, more depends on like the day.
Julie: Is it an hour? and a half hour.
Mai: It's normally 60 minutes. 60 minutes class.
Julie: That’s short. It's a lot to squeeze in!
Mai: I know. Yeah. So yeah, the starts has been like talking about, like extending it a little bit more. So we can like actually finish everything.
Julie: I know it's a lot. It's hard to fit all that in 60 minutes, especially if you're doing floor conditioning and trying to get center work and all of that stuff is a lot.
Mai: Yeah, yeah.
Julie: So okay, so so men and women exercise separately, so in ballet training, so as a kid, at some point, you have to learn partnering and dancing together. Is that happening at for kids there? What's the situation there with the partnering?
Mai: That's a really excellent question. I haven't really thought about that. But you know that the way I see it in the studio with kids? No, they actually never, like, mingle together and never learn to like, learn partner dance.
Julie: So they're also always separate?
Mai: I don't even think that ballet for men exists here.
Julie: Oh, fascinating, because I guess it would have to be a separate studio or a separate facility.
Mai: I mean, the concept of ballet hasn't been extended to the, you know, the male exercise regime, if you know what I mean.
Julie: What do men do for exercise?
Mai: They do heavy lifting and cross it. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the gentlest type of exercise that I've seen men do is Yoga to be honest, and that's it.
Julie: So they have their own studio?
Mai: Yeah. Separate classes.
Julie: Is there is barely a part of the culture. Are there ballet performances? Do do companies tour there and put on shows or is it all sort of just like watching on YouTube watching on video?
Mai: Not at all. Ballet is completely new form of art in Saudi Arabia. So as I know, I've only started last year but I know like instructor have been learning ballet with has started six years ago. And that was about the earliest, you know, ballet kind of studio that was available in Saudi Arabia. And she only started with kids like teaching in international schools. And that's it. And then I think she's, like, chose to extend it a little bit further to adults. And yeah, I mean, there's still a lot, a long road to come in terms of getting people more familiar with ballet. And that's like, it's like adults can do ballet. And it's not only exclusive to children and young adults. Yeah, so I think she's working really hard on like spreading that kind of awareness if you know what I mean.
Julie: Do you talk to your friends about about that you take ballet class? What do your friends and family think about taking ballet class?
Mai: The first response I get from them is like, ah, do you actually can do that at this age or not? Like, yeah, you can, and you should all all of you should come to the class at least once and try. Maybe one time is not enough to get like, a grasp of the whole ballet experience, but it's still, like it's a good first step. And then yeah, you just by time, you get familiar with the terminology, you get familiar with the positions and the muscles to use. So, and you actually doesn't mean like, the first. The first thing people associate with ballet is being on point, right? Which is not what ballet is. So I mean, ultimately, that was like you know, everyone's you know, goal, but it doesn't have to be straight to the pointe shoes, if you know what I mean.
““The first response I get [when I talk about taking ballet] is “you actually can do that at this age?” Like, yeah! You can! and all of you should come to the class at least once and try. ””
Julie: And I think there's there definitely is a big misconception where they say, Oh, you can go up on your toes or I don't have pointe shoes or I can't come to class without like…. You don't need pointe shoes for a while. We're good. come in your socks for a while. It's fine.
Mai: Exactly. And you still work hard. I mean, right. Like on your face and physicality you seem like really great, graceful and you know, show this smile. But you're inside you're actually really working hard and sweating and struggling so it's actually a really good workout for people who don't like high impact classes, type of workout.
Julie: Do you still take Zumba and other kinds of just like more dance workout classes are you mostly ballet now?
Mai: Right now I'm focused with ballet because I just enjoy it and this is a an amazing sensation I get when I'm Like, hearing the piano and, you know, moving to the music, I just feel like I was, like, taken out of this world and put into a fairy tale. And, you know, just living like, my dreams and like everything I want to accomplish or achieve in the hour. And then like, you know, after finishing the class, I was like, Okay, back to reality but with with completely, you know, transformed spirit and just amazing feeling.
““Right now I’m focused with ballet because I just enjoy it and there is this amazing sensation I get when I’m hearing the piano and moving to the music. I just feel like I was taken out of this world and put into a fairy tale.
And, just living my dreams and everything I want to accomplish or achieve in the hour. And then after finishing the class, I was like, Okay, back to reality but with completely transformed spirit and just amazing feeling. ”
— MAI”
Julie: Yeah. Yeah, ballet is very magical.
Mai: So, yeah, um, right now, I'm only focused on ballet and a lot of Barre classes, core classes that would, like, you know, help me to get through the journey. I know I'm still Like, in the beginning, only the beginning and enjoying I'm enjoying every day as it comes. But I know that I am like, at that point I'm giving like 100% of what I can give at that time. And I just enjoy it. And no matter how long it takes to be en pointe, maybe two, maybe three, maybe five years, never you never know, but I'm enjoying the process.
Julie: Well, that's a big part of it. And I imagine having been in school for so many years, five years to get en point would seem quite small in comparison with you know, 12, 13 years to get to finish your schooling.
Mai: Ah, yeah, even I've seen a lot of younger dancers getting select so excited in the classes and asking the instructor “When are we going to be en point?” Like, relax, you're not going to be on point for like another two, three years, depends on your hard work. So let's, let's focus on that first.
Julie: One step at a time.
Mai: Yeah, exactly.
How did you find time for all of these passions while also in med school?
Julie: I mean, your story is just so fascinating, like being in school for so long. And then also, you were able to explore your passions throughout your time in school. While you're very focused on that you also were able to create a second focus on something else that you are really passionate about, which I think is hard when you're so busy with school and with with, I'm sure what is a very all-consuming process of med school. I'm sure that was very all-consuming but yet you were still able to find that time to take for yourself for this other passion
Mai: Of course. And it's not it's not easy to be in a foreign country away from home. Yeah. And be a student by your own and just trying to, you know, live day by day and, you know, keep it together. Like it wasn't an easy journey. To be honest. It was a very challenging One, but I still I still, I'm still proud of it. And I am happy that I got the chance to, you know, live it.
Julie: Well they always say anyone interesting has never lived an easy life.
Mai: Exactly. Oh, thank you. Thank you for calling me interesting.
Julie: I think so many dancers that I speak with struggle with motivation and struggle with pushing through the hardships. But I think, from my perspective, what I've heard from you today is that you have already had to work through many hardships leading up to your journey with ballet. And so ballet isn't where you're learning that. You've already learned about the struggle and like going through challenging parts of life. And so when you get to ballet, it's not so hard. Whereas people have that sort of their first hard thing they've experienced, they find it to be very overwhelming. And if that's the first time they experienced a bump in the road, then it would be very challenging to push through it.
Mai: True. That's a really good point and another like point that I want to raise is all these little things that we enjoy through life. Like we should, like, make time for it. And we should like schedule them because this is what makes us you know, go through the hardship of life. If there is something you enjoy, just create the time for it. And just by doing this every single day, I think, like, life is gonna become a lot easier.
““All these little things that we enjoy through life. Like we should, like, make time for it. And we should like schedule them because this is what makes us go through the hardship of life.
If there is something you enjoy, just create the time for it, and just by doing this every single day, life is gonna become a lot easier.”
”
Julie: Yeah, I mean, you think we all have 24 hours in a day, right? No one has any more or less time in a day. So you can, as you said, create the time for what matters to you like you were going. You were, you were in school, you were doing so much stuff, but yet you still, as you said, created the time for the things that mattered to you, and that is a huge learning, I think for people when we feel like there's no time for something, you have to figure out how to make the time or else your life’s gonna pass you by then you're at the end, like, Well, I didn't do it, but it's like, well, you got to figure out how to do it.
Mai: That's right. Yeah, you’re absolutely right.
Julie: You only get one time through your 30s. You know?
Mai: That's absolutely right. And it's never too late, you know? Yeah. If you haven't started, you can start now if you want to.
Julie: That's right. And you'll always wish that you started sooner. So if you start today, in a year, you'll be glad you started today versus if you waited another year.
Mai: Sure, sure. That's absolutely true.
Julie: Yeah, you're always glad.
A brief interlude about my greyhounds
Mai: I love your dogs, by the way
Julie: Yeah, they're so funny, they're huge.
Mai: They are and they are actually not so common here, we usually find them in the desert. They’re usually like desert dogs
Julie: Right, they’re desert dogs, especially the black one. She's a Spanish greyhounds, so she's a little different than the white one who's an English Greyhound, so she's a little bit more like closer to like a Saluki.
Mai: They're super fast aren’t they?
Julie: Yes, they go fast. So fast. Where I had I lived before in Denver, some of our neighbors were from Saudi Arabia - they were here for college - and they were talking about the salukis who they would see in their area. And do you have salukis?
Mai: Yes. yes, Salukis, yes.
Julie: Yes. They thought our dogs were saluki’s. So they were talking about they salukis and they said they hunt gazelle and I was like, That's nuts. I didn't know they hunted gazelle. That's crazy. But she's, she's definitely a hunter.
Mai: Yeah, we definitely had similar dogs, because I volunteer in dog shelter as well. Oh, yeah. And we had a couple of them and now they live on a farm with a lot of horses, and a donkey and two sheep.
Julie: So you find time to work at the university and take ballet and workout and go to the dog shelter. You are just, you're just a very busy woman.
Mai: Yeah, you know, the dog shelter, I only do once a week. Okay, I only started last year. So, about the same time I started ballet. But you know, everything brings like a different completely different experience and completely different sensation and emotion. So, like, you need all of these.
Julie: Yeah. They make you a whole person.
Mai: Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Advice for you! Just keep going!
Julie: Do you have any last words of advice for our listeners who might be listening and thinking, can I do it? Why should I do it? Is it worth it? Any, any last parting words you want to share with our listeners?
Mai: I think like, never underestimate yourself. Never underestimate your capability. And what you actually can achieve is a lot more than what you think.
““Never underestimate yourself. Never underestimate your capability. And what you actually can achieve is a lot more than what you think.””
Just putting the hard work into it and, you know, having a vision of what you want to do or what you want to accomplish and you know, stay focused with, like, what you want to do and just keep going. And usually the, the line of progress is not a straight line. It is usually ups and downs. We just listen to yourself, listen to your body, enjoy the process, and just keep dancing.
Julie: I love it. Your story is so awesome. I love just that your connection to music through all of it and how music can really move and transport us to another land. It's it's really very cool to be one with to be one with the music along this way. Very awesome.
Mai: Music is that common language of everyone.
Julie: Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the coolest things about ballet is you can do it in whatever language you speak, it's the same movement no matter who you are and where you're from. It's the same thing.
Mai: Yeah, that's art.
Julie: Well, thank you so much for being on the show.
Mai: You’re welcome, Julie. Thank you. It's an honor to be with you, honestly. And I'm so glad I got to like share my story with like, a lot of adult ballerinas and yeah, I can't wait for like, the next surprises you have for us. It's gonna be great.
Julie: Yeah, so much fun stuff.
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