Broche Banter #31 -- Patricia - Late to the Party Ballet
Today, I chat with Patricia, the creator of Late to the Party Ballet blog and Instagram account.
She started ballet 6 years ago, after doing ice hockey, hip hop, a little pole dancing, and then ballet. She cares for her son who has cerebral palsy.
Her incredible breadth of life experience gives her a very unique perspective on ballet, and our conversation winds to many fascinating places, from the concept of turnout and how it relates to her son’s cerebral palsy, to anxiety, and cross training.
For more from Patricia, be sure to follow her on Instagram @latetothebartyballet or check out her blog, LateToThePartyBallet.com.
Enjoy!
Before we get to the show, let’s take our Broche Bite!
On this segment, we’ll talk about bite-size ballet tidbits to give you something to chew on while you listen.
Today, we have a Japanese proverb.
Do you want to know the difference between a master and a beginner? The master has failed more times than the beginner has ever tried.
So, the next time you get frustrated by falling out of a balance or a pirouette, just think that you’re one failure closer to mastery!
Now, onto the show!
From ice hockey to hip hop to ballet, all as an adult!
Julie: Welcome to the show. Patricia. I'm so excited to get to meet you today.
Patricia: Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a long time coming.
Julie: It has been a long time coming! We've been chatting on Instagram on comments, not even on direct messages really, just on comments really, for I don’t know, years it seems like.
Patricia: No, and I'm so enjoying your account. I often I don't really have time to go through everything and comment so it's so nice to actually get a chance to chat. I really appreciate being here with you.
Julie: Very much looking forward. So you are @latetothepartyballet on Instagram and you have latetothepartyballet.com as your blog as well where you write, I mean you say “long form” right? You advertise yourself as “long form” and it is truly long form. It's very cerebral discussions and well-researched articles about what it's like to be an adult dancer. Why? What got you What got you into all this? When did you start?
Patricia: So I started about six years ago. I was 37. And it was more of a… I would say, an accidental start. So I never had this dream as a child, or maybe I did, but you know, it didn't prevail. Not as that I remember that I always wanted to get back to it. I was always in sports, but mostly more like team sports or endurance sports and so never really … never in dance, I actually, I considered myself not very talented in dance. Whenever I was in a Fitness Studio, and there was some sort of aerobics class, I felt like I was totally uncoordinated and avoided these things, although I did always love clubbing. So you know, like, going out and dancing.
And then I basically, there was a time in my life. So my son was, was pretty young, around three or four, and I played ice hockey for a while, which I also started late, as an adult. And then it just got too much. And I felt like I didn't want to continue with that. Because late ice times, and lots of traveling for games. And then then I quit. And then I was looking for something else. And I started taking hip hop classes. And that's what really got me into a dance studio. And then from there was a short stint into pole dance. And then finally, ballet. I just thought it might help me get better at hip hop. But then it kind of took over.
“I quit [ice hockey], and then I was looking for something else. I started taking hip hop classes, and that’s what really got me into a dance studio. From there, was a short stint into pole dance, and then finally, ballet. I just thought it might help me get better at hip hop. But then it kind of took over.”
Julie: Wow, I have never heard a journey from ice hockey to hip hop to pull anything back to ballet. Like, that is the most unusual trajectory I think I've heard.
Patricia: Right, yeah, maybe often is the other way around. Right? Yeah. dancer, like ballet dance has branched out into other sports, but I think we need these stories that go both ways. And it's so fun to have it go both ways.
Julie: Amazing, I feel like I'm the the things that would attract someone to ballet are so different from the things that would attract you to ice hockey or hip hop? Is that is that true? Or is that just showing my lack of knowledge about those two things?
Patricia: The culture obviously is very different. So that is definitely was it was a barrier for me. I couldn't see myself in that kind of very delicate and graceful type of activity. So I think that's why it was this progression through hip hop. So, this was something still very athletic and athletic in terms of …. perceived as athletic, and maybe a bit I don't know, more cool kind of dance….
Julie: Yes, I agree!
Patricia: And so, that basically.. it got me closer because I would sometimes see the ballet classes taking place while I was waiting for my hip hop class. So, I think that took away that barrier. On the other hand, there are a lot of similarities I find because in ballet, like in any high-performance setting, you have to put in a certain type of focused work. Also certain parameters are similar.. both are an anaerobic type of activity, basically. You need turn out for skating, not as much as ballet, but you have the turnout mechanics. You need to be very balanced on skates. So, yeah, there are some unexpected similarities.
On Ballet and Being “Pretty”
Julie: It brings to mind a blog post I remember you wrote about why being pretty in ballet can sometimes get a little bit troublesome. What is that idea about?
Patricia: So I wrote this article [The "Pretty" Trap of Adult Ballet] because I felt that it's easy to portray ballet as something very narrowly aesthetic, that there's this this “pretty” aesthetic. And I find this perspective quite limiting, because ballet can be so much more and it is so much more. And so the idea was to kind of introduce a more diverse idea of beauty, I would say. That beauty doesn't have to follow that pretty, pink, delicate kind of scheme, but it can also express itself in an athletic build, for example, in taking a lot of space, in sheer power. Many kinds of expressions that it can take. I wanted to point that out, because especially in Instagram, of course, the pretty pictures, they are quite popular. So this was the idea to kind of encourage a more diverse visual expression of it too.
“So I wrote this article [The “Pretty” Trap of Adult Ballet] because I felt that it’s easy to portray ballet as something very narrowly aesthetic, that there’s this this “pretty” aesthetic. And I find this perspective quite limiting, because ballet can be so much more and it is so much more. And so the idea was to kind of introduce a more diverse idea of beauty, I would say. That beauty doesn’t have to follow that pretty, pink, delicate kind of scheme, but it can also express itself in an athletic build, for example, in taking a lot of space, in sheer power. Many kinds of expressions that it can take.”
Julie: Well, it's interesting, because ballet is so much… if you think about a corps de ballet, the whole point of a corps de ballet is to look the same, right? The whole point is to move exactly the same way to look exactly the same way, to have your head piece on the same way to have your leg at the same height. So I think it lends itself to that idea of sameness and that sort of thing. How do you….? I don't necessarily accept that. But it's just interesting how it feeds into that idea.
Patricia: Yes, maybe there is a unique opportunity for people who start ballet as adults, and don't go through that conventional progression of a pre-professional training, and then going through the hierarchy in a company, because I think you can find that unique, that individual expression, right from the start. Because you have to build everything yourself, you have to build your training environment yourself, you have put together your resources, find your teachers. So there's much more space for expressing beauty in different ways. And also, we're bringing a lot of experience of beauty and grace into this when we start. So it's a much more informed beauty I find and we don't have that pressure to look like the person next to us. And so I think there's a bit of freedom in that. And, and I think it's also worth exploring that freedom and that space.
Julie: Yeah, it's, it's fascinating I had a goal setting workshop with my dancers a couple weeks ago, and I asked them at the end what their goals were, and every single one of their goals had to do with creative expression. Wanting to make a routine, wanting to feel graceful, wanting to be able to dance in the house, wanting to create something. It was incredible how, as you're saying, as adults, ballet is very much a creative expression expression within the constraints of trying to make something exactly how someone else made it.. within that range. It's so creative, though.
Patricia: Yeah. And it's true, what you just said… The unique thing about ballet compared to other dance forms, is that the movement repertoire is actually quite narrow when you think about classical ballet. So it's a very unique challenge to work with that movement repertoire and respect it in a way too, but then do it in the way that works for you on many levels….. emotionally, physically.
And so I think that's, that's important, because it's so easy to get stuck in a certain idea of how things have to look on the outside. And then totally ignoring that you still have to create it from the inside.
Tell me about your ballet training
Julie: Yeah, it's so true. So you mentioned another interesting point in that last bit that you said was about how as adults, we have to piece everything together, which I think is just such a good point. We have to really build it. There isn't…. Even if you're going to classes at a studio, a lot of times they're not a progression from A to Z, they're not meant to take you from age 8 to age 18. They're not like they're not designed like that, right? Because adults come in and out and it's not as rigid of a program. And so we are very much piecing it together, where you can get someone who's dancing for 10 years, but yet doesn't know, some random small piece because it never happened around their life. How did you piece together your training? What has your last six years look like?
Patricia: So I started in a drop in setting. I basically took the class that was available for absolute beginners in my studio. A few months in, what I did was, I found a teacher for private lessons, because I found that the drop-in class was great, but it's kind of hard, because there's no systematic progression in a drop-in setting, and it also often varies from teacher to teacher, what they consider a beginner level and more advanced level, and also what they address and what they don't address. So those private lessons, which I took every other week, they helped me fill the gaps that I had in the drop-in setting. And so basically, that was my main approach for the last years was to find studios that felt good, that felt like a ballet home to me, and then work with a teacher in a private setting roughly a couple of times per month. To me, it's not necessarily how often you do it. But even one private class can just jumpstart so much.
And then, of course, work at home also. So kind of an idea how to build the athleticism for ballet. And yeah, in these times, it's more than just strength and conditioning basically, it's actually also technical work. For me right now, at the barre.
Julie: Yeah, well, yeah. Right. We can't really go anywhere at the moment in time.
Patricia: Yeah. Or not as much. What the situation is … in Denver, right?
Julie: Yeah. I just moved about an hour north of Denver recently.
Patricia: Are the studios open there?
Julie: They're open here, yeah, especially in northern Colorado, where it's not as big of a city. So it's a little smaller here. They're open… they have the limitations and the requirements. The masks, the distancing and all that stuff. But yeah, they're open.
Patricia: Yeah. Same, same here. I haven't gone in because I'm still in quarantine after coming back from Germany, but I can't wait.
Starting Ballet in Germany
Julie: Is that where you're from?
Patricia: Yes, so that's where I grew up. I was born in Poland, originally, but we moved to Germany when I was about six years old. So I grew up in Germany, Northern Germany. But before we came to Canada about three and a half years ago, I lived in Munich for the 10 years prior.
Julie: Oh, you started ballet in Germany?
Patricia: Yes. Yes. In Munich, correct.
Julie: Oh okay. And are the classes in German there?
Patricia: Yes, yeah. But the terminology is still French. We have kind of a universal language, which is a good thing about ballet.
Julie: That's right. And so when you came to Canada, did you have to start taking classes in English, or were they in French, or what was the situation there?
Patricia: Ah so Toronto is English-speaking, so they are in English. And I mean, of course, some of the terms you use the other language, like most terms are French, obviously, but then there are terms like “turnout,” right? There's a translation. But usually, I find even when people don't speak the language, it's usually no problem to take a class when it comes to ballet.
Julie: I love taking class from people who don't speak English natively, because the literal translations of the way people say things in other places is fascinating to hear in English, like a common one for turnout translates literally to “outside” and it's like “have your knee outside your hip” and it's like, “I suppose that's true!” It's just fascinating how the language shapes your mind.
Patricia: Right “en dehors” in French is basically “outside.” Yeah, yeah. True.
Julie: It's so interesting. It always it always fascinates me.
How Ballet Relates to Cerebral Palsy & Driving
Julie: Okay, so you have a child as well through all of this.. how did you make time during this? Because your, your child is a teenager now is, is that right?
Patricia: Yes, yeah. I always felt that ever since I became a mother that it's important to have things outside of being a mother. To me, it's, it's one of my priorities to make time for things that nourish me, and that give me a chance to express other strengths and ideas and talents outside of motherhood. So I've always been quite good about making time for ballet and for other activities, too. And when he was younger, and I went to class and he was with me, I would just take him along, and he would just sit and wait. Now he's old enough, he just stays at home and enjoys it. He’s going to turn 14 next week.
On the other hand, my son has a disability, cerebral palsy, and more and more, I find that my study of ballet and the movement patterns for ballet and motor learning, that it very much feeds into the way my son works and does his exercises and the way I can support him. So it kind of goes both ways. In the end, it's all about motor skill learning, and how to change the brain. And so for him he wants to improve his walking skills, and for me, it's about improving my ballet skills, and there's not really that much of a difference, I find more and more.
Julie: Wow, that's fascinating. So the training mechanism is really quite similar.
Patricia: Yeah, in terms of principles, I like to think in principles, so the way you would trigger changes in the brain, the way try to get a movement pattern into the nervous system. These are quite universal principles. It doesn't really matter what specifically or what specific movement it is, but more how to make the body adapt, and the system adapt. Yeah.
Julie: So are some other examples of what you're talking about, like riding a bike and learning to swim? Are those other things like you're talking about how to learn different movement patterns?
Patricia: Yes, yes, exactly. So when I talk movement pattern, it's like, how does the nervous system and the brain activate the muscles in the correct sequence and in the correct timing, and intensity and so on. And that never ends because you can always refine it, right? So you can always make it more precise. And so there's never an end to motor skill learning, because you always you can always improve quality. So that would apply to all kinds of activities, whether that's dance or swimming or learning to ride a bike.
Julie: Yeah. It's actually really interesting. I just finished reading a book called “Learning How to Drive Without Fear.” I have lived only in cities for the last 13 years and I haven’t driven a car since I was a teenager, and I'm relearning how to drive and getting hang of all of it. The author was talking about motor skills that you need for driving, but he was not being specific about what that meant. And I'm thinking, I'm not sure what motor skills you're talking about. But he must mean that the ability to know how to steer and how much to stop and how much to turn the car, it must be what you’re talking about, firing the right things in the right order with the right intensity. Do you think that's what he meant?
Patricia: Yeah, and I love that example, actually, because often when we think about driving a car, we don't think so much of movement, right? Because we're basically sitting right and the car does so much for us, but actually driving a car is also a high-level movement skill because, well, first of all, you have the actual movements, like, what you do with your hands and your feet. But then you also have for example, eye movements are key in driving. And at the same time holding different and also conflicting pieces of information and sensory input, and then coordinate that with your motor output. And then everything happens at a very high velocity that we're not usually used to when we just walk through streets. So yeah, I love that example.
How's the book? It sounds interesting.
Julie: Oh, it's a great book. I really enjoyed it. It's meant for senior citizens. But I feel like the principles apply to everybody. He talks a lot about just how to overcome fear and how to…. like you're saying with…. and I think we get this a lot as dancers…
When we get afraid, our body no longer responds, our mind no longer responds properly to our surroundings. And when we have anxiety, if we're going to mess up the combination, if we're going to hit a parked car, if we picture a car accident, whatever happens in your mind, and you get anxious, it stops your motor function, it stops your coordination from behaving properly. And so he talks a lot about overcoming fear in driving. I mean, it was just totally relevant to ballet, like every dancer should read this book as well. It was so relevant.
Patricia: Can you give an example what kind of ideas he kind of gave in terms of overcoming that fear or? Just curious.
Julie: Yeah, I mean, it's a fascinating read. And he talks a lot about…. and what made it spark was that you talked a lot about focus, and knowing what to look at when you have all these sensory outputs coming in at you. And he talks a lot about learning what you should focus on in a given moment in time, and that that is a really critical part. So in terms of the eye movement, he talks a lot about what specifically to focus on, and then how often to look in different places. And then that focus is really the key to stopping your anxiety because you're focused on a point and an action and you're visualizing going down the center lane, you're visualizing your body moving over a part in space, because he talks a lot about drive your body, not the car. So he talks about how you would picture your body going through the center of the lane and not the car going through the center of the lane. So you're getting body awareness, and just almost like focusing on the moment or focusing on the physical sensations of it all, which always helps with anxiety, is focusing on the physical sensations.
Patricia: Yes, I love that.
Julie: I mean, it says he's taught over 5000 senior citizens how to drive so you can imagine he's probably seen it all.
Patricia: Fascinating. Yeah. And I like the focus on the body versus the car, because it's so easy to space out physically, when you're driving. When you’re kind of feeling like that everything is happening and done for you. So I love the idea of actually feeling the body move through space.
Julie: Yeah, it's so new. And I think it's very true when you're thinking about dancing that you need to feel your body. Like it's so odd that you become disconnected from your body as a dancer when all it is your body. But yet you do somehow become very disconnected from your own body, when you're critiquing it so much and thinking about so much technique, it's really easy to get out into space.
Patricia: Totally, same thing. I mean I've never thought about it. So it's great that you brought this up this this analogy, but it's true. I'm just thinking, for example, when you wait for your group to go onto a diagonal, and you're not sure of the combination. And so you kind of keep thinking about what to do next, or you watch someone else what they do, and how that totally takes you out of your body. And you're not aware at all what you're actually doing because you're so focused on other things.
On Anxiety & Pirouette Panic
Julie: Yeah, it's a very odd sensation. I talk a lot about the pirouette panic, where when you go for a turn somehow you black out and can't feel your body and if you ask a dancer which way they fell, they have no clue. If you ask if their leg was turned out, they don't know, they couldn't feel it. There 's a lack of connection in the mind and the body. Well his theory is that it comes from the anxiety of a situation, which is when you're on a diagonal and you're like, “Oh, this is scary, they're gonna watch me do it” and you have the anxiety and it detaches you from your body. The anxiety detaches you from your body.
Patricia: Yes, hmm.
Julie: Fascinating,
Patricia: How do you work with your students around the pirouette panic?
Julie: Really my main goal with them is to get them to feel comfortable with the act of turning so that they're not surprised when they feel a sensation of turning or being dizzy or being disoriented. So I'll have them just stand flat, parallel and just like spin around with their arms and maybe pick up a leg and get a little dizzy and then know that it's okay and that that dizzy feeling is pretty normal. It's been a long time since you were dizzy, right? Like, as a kid, you enjoy getting dizzy. But once you get older, being dizzy feels like a problem in your body, it feels problematic. So I try to help them with that.
I did read a fascinating book on panic attacks a while back. And it was fascinating about how to help people who have panic attacks. And one of the ways that they do it is to have you simulate all the feelings you'd get in a panic attack. So breathing through a straw for two minutes to feel lightheaded, putting your head down and spinning in an office chair, so you feel dizzy, not eating for a while so you feel the hungry feeling… and then teaching your body that these feelings are okay, and that you're not going to die from these feelings. And then generally, panic is actually continued to trigger through your own fear of your physical sensations. So one thing triggers anxiety and you're like, “Oh my god, I'm feeling scared.” And then you're like, “Oh my god, I'm feeling dizzy, I'm gonna die” and you're like, “Oh my god, I'm feeling even more dizzy, I'm gonna die.” And it just is a cycle literally rooted in the physical sensations. It's not even rooted in anything else other than you feeling scared about how you feel.
Patricia: It's like the same thing when you can't sleep, you're more worried about not sleeping, than what do not sleep actually does to you.
Julie: That's right. You're like, “Oh, I have to get to sleep. It's midnight. I can't be awake this late. You have to get to sleep” and then you start panicking that you’re still awake. It's no good. It's no good. You can't let the panic creep in.
Patricia: Yeah.
On Learning Turnout as an Adult
Julie: You talk a lot about turnout. You seem obsessed with turnout, which I love, because I'm also obsessed with the hips and how they work. But I'm also fascinated by your perspective on how you train turnout. A lot of people think coming to me that they can't get their turnout as an adult, that you have to have developed this motor pattern as a child, but you can't figure it out. You obviously have the very opposite mindset as well. Talk to me a little bit about your philosophy on turnout.
Patricia: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, great topic. Love it. Yeah. Because there's so much limiting thinking around turnout in ballet. Can't talk about it often enough!
Julie: That’s right.
Patricia: So to me, turnout is a motor skill, just like any other movement. And in order to learn a motor skill, you have to understand what needs to happen in the body. And specifically we talked about movement patterns, so what's the movement pattern that needs to be activated? And to put it in simple terms, you essentially have to know what your bones have to do in that movement. So, to me, the starting point for turnout work is actually understanding how the femur, the thigh bone, needs to move in the hip joint socket.
And, it's a challenge, because it's not something that you can like, solve once and then it's done, but because every joint has a unique anatomy for every person, everyone needs to figure that out for themselves.
To me, this is done by a lot of movement exploration. So working with very small movements, and just kind of listening to the body. Listening in terms of… trying to develop an awareness of what feels right, what feels good, what feels mobile, versus what feels restricted, and where am I actually pushing against resistance. And that to me is not necessarily a structured type of work, where you do certain exercises, but this can be very, very open where you just take time and you lay down on the floor or you stand and then just rotate with very small movements and then develop that awareness basically.
This work to me, that really goes into activation work where you would actually activate these correct movement patterns before every class and just as a regular part of your training, and then once that is established, then you can add mobilizations, stretching and strengthening, which of course, when you take a class you’re also continuing to do the stretching and strengthening as well.
As far as having to start as a child to get full turnout, I mean, yes, as far as we know, there is a component of soft tissue contribution, where when you start early and your tissues are still soft, you can probably achieve more. Whether we can achieve that as adults, maybe on a much longer timescale? I don't know, quite frankly, I don't think there is any evidence because it's always a numbers game, right? We don't probably have the population that has worked for two decades to improve the turnout. And there's not much research interests in that area. So I think in these kind of areas, when we don't have the knowledge, we have to try. That's kind of my my take on it, you know, just try it, work on it and see what happens. And maybe you have to work for a long time. Yeah. So
Julie: I think it's very funny that you introduce the idea of the time horizon. I don't know if funny is the word. But funny in a funny way, I think it's, it's very important when you're thinking about goals and think about the timeline, right? The idea that we overestimate how much we can do in a day and underestimate how much we can do in a year. Right? In one day, you can do literally nothing, right? One day, one practice session, you're achieving next to nothing, but you do 100 practice sessions, and that's a big deal. I think your point is, really, I had never thought of it like this. But when you're talking about a kid getting perfect turnout, they have worked on it for 20 years, and then they have it.
Patricia: Yeah, I mean, they had an advantage of maybe working on it and getting it faster because of their tissue situation. So what I was saying is that, as an adult, it might take longer than it took for the kid to get to the same thing.
Julie: Yeah. And even so if you had to, let's say, an adult took 30 or 40 years. Has anyone started at 20, and seriously worked on it until 60? Maybe, but not many, right?
Patricia: Not many, not really not? You know, you started 40? Do you know what what, you know, if you do if you really do the work? What's going to happen at 60? we probably don't have many people, you know, doing that either. Because, you know, it's not only that you actually have to start and do it as long, but you actually have to keep up that work as well. And that's also not easy, because there's other things in life also. But, we're talking about this to say that it's not necessary to say it won't work when we don't know.
Julie: Right, right. We're not sure that we've tried is what we're saying. We're not sure we've given it a real try.
Yeah. I once pontificated, the theory that I'm learning to dance with turnout is very similar to learning to speak with a different accent or like how to develop an accent in another language. Because it permeates everything in the language, you have to develop a different way to use your tone, you have to change your thought patterns. You have to do all of that. Do you find that similar? Do you think that's an off the mark assessment?
Patricia: No, I think that's a great analogy. Yeah, totally. Because it's, as you say, it kind of changes your baseline for everything else on top.
Julie: That's a nice word, “baseline.”
Patricia: Yeah. Yeah.
Julie: Because everything has to be done in that way. Right. I think that the word “baseline” is super interesting when it comes to ballet. Because it's not like you turned out once and you were done. It's just a constant. It's a constant. It's like a state of being, it's not an end result necessarily.
Patricia: Yeah, yeah. So you have to carry it through whatever you're doing when you're plié-ing or you're standing on one leg or you're jumping, you still have to carry that baseline through, just like the accent. So you know, that analogy actually works pretty well.
Julie: Yeah, I'm noodling. The idea of it being a baseline is super interesting, because I think when you're talking about it being a motor pattern, I think that that makes a lot of sense to me, too. It's hard to explain what turnout is, and there's the common question, “Why can't I hold my turnout?” “Why do I lose my turnout in the center?” “Why can't I keep it?” And the answer is “Because it's hard!” Right? You're changing the way you do things. And the problem is we're going against your natural tendencies, right? Your natural tendency as a human is to have your legs forward and we're trying to do everything by changing the fundamental way that you stand.
Patricia: Well, you're changing a habit. To me, it's the same thing, much more simple example than turnout would be normal standing, our normal standing non turnout. We always think of standing as something fixed; that you kind of have a certain posture. And we, we tend to think of it as static. But standing is just as much a motor skill. It's a movement pattern, the way you stand, because it's the way your brain activates your muscles, just like in any other movement.
And so, of course, it's possible to change the way you stand. But as the same thing, it's the same kind of work. It's the same kind of work as developing turnout: you're creating a new baseline, and you have to carry it through whatever you're doing with it.
So you know, it's not, it's not unique to turn out or to ballet, but often, we're not aware of the things that we do, anyway, every day, that are this baseline that we totally can change.
Julie: I think it's interesting that you bring the point awareness into it as well, which is when you're thinking about posture, it's actually very challenging to change your posture because you lose it every second, right? When you have a new dancer coming in, or when I work with a new dancer, every two seconds, I'm reminding them, tuck your pelvis, lift your stomach, tuck your pelvis lift, and they're like, “why are you…. You just told me that!” I'm like, “Yeah, I know. But you already lost it!” It's because gravity is constant, your old habits are constant. And eventually you can feel when you lost it and update it. But in the beginning, you can't even tell that you need to reengage your muscles.
Patricia: It's you know, it's so fascinating to me, I always laugh when I start my barre, and before the first plié I find my body and my placement, and I start the first plié and it's everything's gone. The pelvis that I placed so nicely…. That's why I like to work with a mirror. Because when I do class, either No matter if in the studio or at home, because then you see how insanely fast you lose these things. And it's ….
Julie: ….Maddening, sometimes.
Patricia: It is!
Julie: Like “Just stop moving! Just stay where I want you.” Exactly.
Learning to direct your focus effectively
But I think I think a little bit of it comes back to the the driver teacher. His name’s Norman, I can't remember his last name [edit: Norman Klein], what he said about focus …. so much of a teacher's job when you're learning is knowing what to focus on. So if you think that the rond de jambing leg is the thing you should be thinking about, but that's just a distraction there to distract you, and you need to be thinking about your standing leg. And so then training yourself to focus on an area will help you feel when it has gone out and when you need to reengage and then that eventually helps train your mind to activate without you having to monitor it. But it's still almost an immediate losing of the muscle engagement when you stop looking.
Patricia: Yeah, that's a great point, actually. And that's I noticed that too, that the mind likes to go and the awareness likes to go where most things happen or where there's a lot of movement. And to take the awareness to the key spots, that's actually a skill. Both for a teacher to do the reminding and to know what to let the student focus on, but also when you work with yourself to be able to shift that focus and put it where it matters, and yeah, it's a good point. Yeah.
Julie: I think it's the number one skill I think when you're learning ballet, it's the number one skill is what to focus on because there's so many distractions.. everything is a distraction, remembering the combination, your classmates, your leotard is riding up, your slipper feels weird. Everything is a distraction, and to train your mind to focus in on the things that matter. These other things don’t matter, these two things are what matters and the rest will happen. It's a very important skill to develop.
Patricia: How do you approach that? Either for yourself or when you work with your students like what guides these these awareness, focal points for you?
Julie: I tend to spend a good amount of time discussing before an exercise what they should be focused on and what they should be feeling. So helping them identify initially the sensation that they should be feeling. And then helping them understand that if they have lost that sensation, they probably lost the muscle activation. So a sensation might be pain, right? muscle pain, it might be like, my leg is tired, okay, but if you're like stops being tired, then maybe it's time to re engage those muscles. So you should continue to feel tired through the whole combination, or you should continue to look for these physical cues.
So usually, I spend the beginning of the combination telling them what to focus on. And then they should already know what I'm going to tell them during the combination. And then during the combination, I'll remind them of those things I've already told them. So today, let's focus only on the standing leg on rond de jambe, then I'm telling them the combo, but then continually bringing them back to the standing leg like “Did you think about…” “Maybe let's check in, let's check in there. Let's see what it's doing” “Have you looked at your standing leg in a second, maybe see what it's up to.” “Maybe look at your elbow, maybe look at your standing leg” and just kind of helping them develop.
I hope that one day they hear me talking in their head or any of their teachers that saying, “standing leg, standing leg, pelvis, elbow, standing leg, standing leg” end up having, let's say like a pyramid of stuff that they're looking at standing leg being at the bottom, elbow being at the top. And maybe music in between that they know how to go back and scan their body repeatedly, and which parts to scan at what cadence.
Patricia: Mm hmm. I like the idea of the pyramid that you have, that you have a bit of a hierarchy there. And you have a foundation and then also the other things that rests on that foundation.
Julie: Yeah, yeah, I think every teacher has a different pyramid. I think everyone generally says posture is most important thing, but I think some people would put elbow number two, but maybe for me, that's not as important. And so I think that's part of going to many different people is that some teachers tell you about your shoulders every two seconds, and they never mentioned your pointed foot. And then you go to another teacher and they say point your foot, point your foot, point your foot. And they're not talking about your shoulders. And so I think that that is a huge benefit of different teachers, because you can hear what they think is important for you to focus on. It's all important, but you can understand their shape and how they got to what they find important.
Patricia: Yeah, yeah, that's such a great point. Also, what you just said about benefits of working with different teachers. I've always felt that and I think.. because you asked about how do you piece together your ballet training, I think one important element is to, if you can, if you live in an area where you have different options, is to also switch studios. Either jump between studios, or that you switch after a few years. And even if that takes you out of your comfort level and you kind of leave your beloved home but I think that input from a different perspective is so important for learning and for not getting stuck on a plateau and yeah.
Different teachers, perspectives, and cross training
Julie: I think honestly different perspectives entirely is super useful too, when you think about the way you pieced together your life out of ballet, when you're thinking about bringing in you know, the ice hockey and the hip hop dancing and the pole dancing and even even seeing your son with cerebral palsy and combining all of this information about how to move one's body has all helped shape the dancer you become because you have all these different things that you know about. You know about the muscles, you know about the brain, you know about how to use it, you know how to put power behind your body, you know, all these different things. I think that is also super important.
Patricia: Yeah, and I know I've seen that you also kind of engage in very different activities. Right? And you have also your strength training regimen and your biking or your Peloton. I think I saw. So seems like you're feeding your your dance, your own learning, but also teaching from different sources as well. What’s your experience with that?
Julie: Yeah, I think that so i pieced my training together as well. I did very similar to where I was in a drop in setting and then also sought a private coach as well to piece things together. I hope one day that piecing doesn't have to be so expensive for everyone. I hope one day it's a little bit easier for adults to find that and then I hope that I can be a part of that movement to make it easier for adults to quote unquote, piece it together and get that because like you I took it every so often it obviously adds up and it's hard to find. I mean, it's hard to you can't replace your regular training with that you have to do both. That's where I got a lot of it from. I also did some summer intensives when I was 21, the ones that would take people who were over 18. And that was an incredible experience. Everywhere I've traveled, I've taken drop0in classes and just try to take as many as possible. Even doing summer intensives, I was on an audition circuit, you could call it. All of them come to New York City where I lived to take auditions. And so I think I auditioned with maybe 30 of these people. So then I got 30 different, you could say classes from all these dancers and learned a ton from just that process. So I think I've always had that instilled in me just from having to piece together so much, where I've found incredible value and didn't feel so dogmatic.
I think a lot of dancers can feel where if two teachers said the exact opposite thing, I tried to look for what they were saying, as you said, to use your word, you said principles, you'd like to think about the principle of the matter. And one says lift your standing hip and one says lift you're working hip and you're like, but you can't both be right, but it's possible for them both to be right, you just have to think deeper about what they're truly trying to get your hips to do, and how their mind works to get your hips to do this. Which I always found to be a fascinating part of it.
And then as of late, I've been adding in other things I added in the biking with Peloton because I wanted to understand motivation a little bit better. And what gets people to do stuff they don't want to do because I hate cardio. And I heard that Peloton was good at motivating people. And I was like, All right, come at me. Let's see what you got. Let see if you can get me to stick to something that I hate. And they did.
Patricia: I love that, the motivation to do it, like knowing why.
Julie: Yeah, that was the only reason really honestly. And then I loved it. I fell in love with it. There's so much about mindset. And there's so much about your your training your minds to overcome challenges and overcome hardships, and how to take a very uncomfortable physical sensation and push through it, which I don't think I had that sort of training in my life before. I think I always just shied away from challenges and never felt like I could do it. So they were all about teaching you that your body is extremely powerful, you have no idea what your body is capable of. And you need to train your mind to be a part of the process and not shut it down. So that's, that was ultimately why I stuck with it, I think because I got so much value from the biking. I still disliked the process of biking, but just learned a ton about it. And then lockdown happened and I lost access to the bike in our gym because that was where I was doing the biking was in the gym.
Patricia: Oh, I see. Okay,
Julie: Yeah, so then I couldn't do the biking anymore. But COVID with incredibly stressful running in person studios. It was incredibly, horribly stressful. And I was like, that was the only way …. the bike, the peloton instructors, I felt were the only way I was going to be able to do it because they were so positive and helped me shape my mind and helped me get through challenges and get through hardships. And I didn't think I could do it without that positive mind set training. Because I was already I was still new to it. And I didn't think I could do it without the instructors. So I just that's why I started doing strength training, just the bodyweight stuff upstairs. Because that was all …. I didn't have the bike and the bikes, you took three months to order because everyone else bought one too.
Patricia: Oh my god.
Julie: So that was why I started that. And then at a certain point, I started adding in yoga, just kind of browsing the app, seeing what was on there. And just I mean incredible benefit. I just, I always shied away from yoga and anything else because I thought if I only had an hour to workout, I wanted to do ballet, and I really loved ballet. And I always felt like anytime I did anything that wasn't ballet I was taking away from my precious ballet time. And I was always afraid to take a yoga class at the studio because there was a ballet class on the schedule. And I would rather just do ballet.
Patricia: Such an interesting point. Yeah, no, I totally I can totally relate to that.
Julie: But now I take one ballet class a week online, and I get better every single week. Because all week I've been stretching and working on my mind and working on my legs and working on my upper body and studying and learning Spanish and you know, all this stuff that's fueling my mind and my body and then I come back to ballet, and every time I come back, I'm better at it, amazingly. So yeah, I'm still exploring this whole world. It's very, very new to me, like three months old.
Patricia: Ya know, and it's such an interesting point in and also I still struggle with that too. Because essentially, the question is how much do you need to do in order to get better? Of course, we know that you can only get better if you do something with enough repetition. So you have to do you know, ballet, often to get better at it. But there's a point when, when it can get too much and actually the return diminishes because basically the nervous system more even in the body can't hold it anymore. It's overwhelmed. And then and finding that sweet spot that's one of the main challenges of becoming an athlete and whatever, or becoming a coach and guiding your athletes.
The whole culture around a sports and dance also is one of “the more the better.” And it's just not true, but how do you navigate information and build the awareness for your body that often tells you when enough is enough? There's so much to explore in that area, as well.
But I agree with you that in order to learn, you have to come at it from different angles, and your movement… take something as a movement pattern… a movement pattern has different elements, and so you can have those weak links, so you won't necessarily improve the whole pattern if you just repeat it. But you have to kind of find a way to break it down and then work on on that weak link. So that's where yoga comes into play or different activities that would strengthen different areas of your body and also take the pressure off of other areas. Repetition means also stress, so if you can do something that unloads body in certain areas, you also have enhanced recovery, and you avoid injuries. So that's all part of the game.
Julie: It's so part of the game, and I think at different points in my journey, it was a different balance. Like in the beginning, I don't think I would have been improving if I was spending six days on something else in one day on ballet, because the the, the vocabulary wouldn't have come, the movement patterns wouldn't have come. So in the beginning, I don't think that would have worked out. And I guess, granted now, like I am teaching about 15 to 18 hours a week, so I'm doing ballet that much, but in a teaching capacity. So I'm not totally focused on my body, I'm focused on the dancers and kind of doing 80% of the motions.
But yeah, it's changed throughout, it's changed. It's changed throughout time.
Patricia: But definitely, it depends on skill. So where you are in you're learning I think it's also an age thing. And, and then also, you know, you have certain cycles, right? You have like micro and macro cycles, like what you do within the week, or what you do within a few months and then within a year. So, you know, a body can't work at 100% for a whole year. So you have to have some sort of up and downs. Ideally planned because otherwise the body will just take them with injuries.
Definitely an interesting topic and life lifelong learning and that area for me, definitely.
Julie: Always, I think everything should be lifelong learning. It sounds like that's your, your bent as well.
Why is ballet amazing?
Julie: One last question for you, I guess is why? Why do you love ballet? And why is it worth it? For anyone who might be considering either quitting… why is it worth it to keep going? Or someone new… Why is it worth it to get started? Why do you love it?
Patricia: That’s such a wide-ranging question, of course., So there's one layer that I think I can't explain. It's just something that I feel drawn to, and I'm not trying to explain that attraction, it's just what it is. It just feels good and makes me happy, gives me peace. So all these things.
Then more specifically, I think I just enjoy this… and I've always enjoyed this kind of work as an athlete… to to get something to a point that makes me satisfied. Just to feel improvements. Realizing that I can do something that I couldn't do. And I think was ballet, specifically, it's interesting because you have very clear benchmarks of what “good” means. What good skill means. So it's very rewarding to work towards that. Because you can can clearly define how much closer you get to it.
And then, there's also this part where, to me, ballet is really a movement practice more than just an activity or an art. So it's something that is just part of my day, and that informs my body, in whatever capacity, I'm using it. So even if I go through my day in completely unrelated activities, ballet still informs the way I act and think and feel in other situations, and I feel that it has done very good stuff for me in that respect, in terms of how I'm moving through the day, and the peace that I get from doing a class. So it goes beyond the class itself, or the dance itself.
Julie: Ballet is… it's a magical thing.
Patricia: Yeah, it is. And, you know, it's interesting how… because I told you that I had issues, the summer COVID-related to get back home to Canada. So for quite a bit of time, I was in a very tense place, and it was extremely stressful, because I didn't know when I would be able to go home. And so it's been one of the toughest periods of my life. And having something that would take me out of my head and just back into my body every day. It was so key, it was crucial to kind of survive that. And I've felt that before that it's mental health saving to have something like that.
Julie: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's so true. We just need a break from our mind sometimes. Yeah. It's sort of relentless up there.
Patricia: Yeah, exactly. And there's different way of doing that, and ballet is probably one of the more healthy ones.
Julie: Yes, that's a very good point. Well, I'm very glad that you made it back home to Canada. And I really, really look forward to continuing to follow your journey on online and keeping in touch I'm thrilled that we were able to chat today. And if anything good came out of COVID it's this podcast and getting to meet you and so many other fabulous people. Because this one happened to for all live in our busy life.
Patricia: That’s true, that’s a really good point. I'm glad you put it out there that you're happy to have conversations and I'm really happy I jumped on it. But no, it was, totally, it was a pleasure. And I look forward to following along and following your bright ideas and projects and yeah, keep going and keep doing what you do. So important.
Patricia: You too. You too. You're a strong voice in the ballet world as well.
Julie: Thank you. Thank you very much.
