Broche Banter #30 -- Kat
Today, I chat with Kat all the way from Tasmania in Australia.
She started ballet just a few weeks before lockdown. She’s also a writer and an illustrator, and we discuss the similarities and differences between how one learns those artistic pursuits and how she’s learning ballet.
She also provides a fun look into the experience of a beginner, so whether it’s been a while since you had to think about pointing your toes, or if you still can’t remember to point them, you’ll enjoy her fresh perspective on the ballet world.
Enjoy!
Before we get to the show, let’s take our Broche Bite!
On this segment, we’ll talk about bite-size ballet tidbits to give you something to chew on while you listen.
Today, let’s talk about allongé. Allongé means to elongate. An allongé could refer to a port de bras, or to a leg in attitude.
Allongé can come from elongating the curved arm positions such as low 5th (or en bas), 1st (or 5th en avant), or high 5th (or en haut). You could also “allongé” your legs and arms together from attitude en haut to arabesque allongé.
Now, onto the show!
Intros, and talking about how opposite Australia is
Julie: Welcome to the show, Kat, I'm so excited to get to chat with you today!
Kat: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Julie: So, where are you calling me from today?
Kat: I'm in Tasmania. So right down the bottom of Australia, which is quite far away.
Julie: That is quite far away. And we were just talking before this that it is Friday night for me and it is Saturday morning for you.
Kat: Yeah. It is a really nice day. When I checked the weather last night it said it was going to be really horrible and 13 degrees Celsius and raining and it's actually really sunny and nice. Hopefully it stays like this.
Julie: Well, that's great news for a weekend.
Kat: Yes, exactly.
Julie: What's happening there in Australia with COVID? Are you guys close? Are you guys open? And what's going on?
Kat: It’s a was really weird situation, because Tasi where I live is an island. Since we went into lockdown for six weeks over March and April. And since then our borders have been closed to anyone that's not an essential worker or returning for family. But we haven't had a case since June, I think, down here. The rest of Australia, not so great. But yeah, down here it's been really good. So they're hoping to be able to open up our borders for at least interstate travel in I think October, which will be good. I think it'll probably mean that we do get a few more cases because we won’t be able to control that too much. But it's definitely Yeah, like most of my family on the mainland, and my sister's just moved to the ACT so like having have her be able to come home for Christmas and stuff would be really good. But yeah, it's weird, weird time.
Julie: Weird. Is your local dance studio open?
Kat: Yes, they did open again. So we were closed, basically for all of our school term two, which is like from April to June. Then we were opened like a couple of weeks, and then it was holidays again. So we opened again probably in July. But this is the last week of this term. So then we'll have enough two weeks off.
Julie: I see. Awesome. And what season is it there?
Kat: It's just come in to spring.
Julie : Yeah. Okay. And we're just starting fall.
Kat: Yeah.
Julie: Yeah. Fascinating.
Kat: Yeah, it’s weird. I'm so jealous of your fall every year I'm like, “I just want to be in the UK or the US. We don't really do … (a) we call it autumn, but it's not really like …. I feel like fall everywhere else is such a feeling and a vibe. But here it's like eh it’s windy and cold, and we don't do anything. We don't really do Halloween and we don't do pumpkin spice, and I’m like “Oh :(“
Julie: No Halloween?!
Kat: Not really. It's like it's one of those things where people go, “Oh, that's such an American thing.” I'm like, “Yeah, but it's fun! I want to dress up!” We do it a little more now than it used to be but it's not a super big thing, you might get kids knocking on the door ….
Julie: So there's no like Halloween ballet class. Like we wear …. like dressing up for ballet class on Halloween.
Kat: I don’t think so. I didn't do ballet last year. This is my first year. But that I don't know. But if there's not I want there to be. I might have to ask my school, because that would be really fun.
Julie: I'm a huge fan of costume Halloween ballet classes. So great.
Kat: I'm gonna ask Lisa today.
Julie: I think it's worth the ask.
Kat: Definitely.
Getting started with ballet
Julie: Okay, so this is your first year of ballet. That's exciting. So, had you started the prior year or did you start in 2020?
Kat: I started in February, so for term one.
Julie: Well that is rough timing to start ballet.
Kat: Yes. Yeah, I think we had seven weeks might like my first year class. And then we went into lockdown. So my teacher was really good. She didn't do any… or she actually she did do a couple of zoom lessons. But she sort of recorded a couple of classes and put them on Facebook so that we can at least access them at home. But yeah, it was like, just starting to know what a plié is, and then suddenly like, no, no more.
Julie: Oh, that's so sad that perhaps like the saddest time to get cut off from it.
Kat: It's like, you can't really do much at home because you still don't know the terms. And there's no one to tell you if you're doing it right.
Julie: Yes. Totally. Right. Because you're so fresh to it all. So it's like to figure out what's going on. Oh, my goodness.
Kat: Yeah, exactly.
Julie: Um, so what? So what got you excited to start it? Have you always dreamed of it? Or is it? Yeah.
Kat: When I was really little, I did it. I think it was like five and I really liked it. But I had a really nasty teacher. And I was a chubby little kid. And I was not a good dancer. And she was onto my mom about me losing weight, and all these things… And going on about “the costumes are super expensive, and they wouldn't fit” and my mom just ended up pulling me out and being like, “No, like that's not the right vibe for a five year old.” And then I've never… I've always wanted to go back and do it because I'm not a good dancer. Anything that's not ballet, I could never ever even in a million years dream of doing, but I feel like ballet because it's so, I don't know, not that it's slowly, what I do is slow. And like some of the movements are so isolated that I can focus on getting them right. So I feel like I'm a little bit less un-co(ordinated) at it. But yeah, I don't even remember why I decided to sign up. It was like a spontaneous thing. I was like, “Huh, I wonder if they do adult ballet here.” And then I googled it. And then I emailed I was like, “Can I start” and she's like “Yeah, you can start in February,” so I did. So random. I think I saw like @jojoballerina on Instagram or something, and I was like, “Oh, I want to be her.”
Julie: Yeah, she's awesome. Isn’t she so pretty?
Kat: Yeah, she's so cool.
Julie: Um, what did you wear to your first class?
Kat: I wore a leotard, and I was the only one and I was so psyched up to do it. And then I was really nervous. And I didn't own any ballet tights yet, but I had Alo Yoga brand flesh colored leggings, so I wore those. And I went to KMart, I don’t know if you guys have KMart, but like cheap, Walmart kind of…
Julie: Oh, KMart, yes, yeah.
Kat: I bought like… it wasn't a leotard, it was like a bodysuit, like a black sleeveless bodysuit. And I wore that. And I bought a, like $10 skirt off eBay. And I wore all that and my ballet slippers. And everyone else there was wearing like, jumpers and tights or just workout gear. And I was like, “Ahhh,” but everyone wears ballet stuff now. So I've converted them all.
Julie: That’s awesome. And a jumper is a sweater, right?
Kat: Yes. Okay. Yeah, sorry.
Julie: I know, I had an Australian coworker was that he was always like, “I'm gonna wear my jumper soon” and I'm like, “What? I, you wear jumpers?” Like, “okay, SWEATER,” got it.
Kat: Yeah, see, we do say sweater sometimes, but a sweater is like it's really weird… Sometimes a sweater means more like a knitted thing and sometimes a sweater is more like, like a jersey material that you’d wear to the gym, but like everything is a jumper. It's like you could have a knitted jumper or a gym jumper but it's really weird.
Julie: So like a hoodie. Would that also be a jumper?
Kat: Yes, but we do call them hoodies as well. Or like a hooded jumper. It’s super weird.
Julie: Okay, well. Yeah. It's always so funny to get the different feel of the lingo.
Kat: Yes. Oh my gosh, yeah, especially I feel like Australia, and even throughout the different states in Australia we say like, really different things, it’s weird.
Julie: So when I'm viewing Australia from where I'm sitting here in the middle of the United States, it looks like an adult ballet mecca. It looks like adult ballet everywhere. It looks like welcoming and inclusive and just like studios everywhere. Is that true? Or is that just how Instagram looks?
Kat: I think on the mainland so like, Sydney, Melbourne, kind of that area, I think yes. Down here, as far as I know, there's only two. So there's Felicity Ryan ballet, which is where I go, and then there's another one that I can't remember the name of. It's also down south. I don't know if there's anywhere up north in Tasi. But I haven't heard anything. I haven't met any other Tasi ballerinas on Instagram or anything but only like the girls I go to class with. But I know in Sydney and Melbourne, I think it’s a lot bigger. And their studios look amazing. Like I love our studio, but it's like a little like… we were in a warehouse for a while now, but now we're in like kind of basement-y, sort of like bottom floor. And it's nice, but it's not the gold beautiful mirrored …. well we do have mirrors, but they’re not gold.
Julie: Yeah, totally, there’s nothing like a big grand studio.
Kat: Yeah, like there's nothing like that here. Yeah. That'd be amazing.
What are your next goals?
Julie: So now that you've gotten your feet wet in it, what are you the most excited about in your impending ballet journey?
Kat: Definitely going en pointe. That's like my goal of life. Even since I was little like I used to walk around and try and go en pointe in my runners or my sneakers or like any shoe. I just thought it looks so cool. But I think like at the moment, I mean, like I'm very, very new still. And like my teacher is very …. I've seen a lot of adult ballet students who get to en pointe, maybe within a year, and I said that to my teacher, and she was like, your ankles will be strong enough, you'll be fine. But like, you can't dance ballet yet. We're still doing such beginner work. So I think it'll be a couple of years before I get there. But I think at the moment, like I'm just trying to pick little goals. I'm not very good at jumping, because I'm not a very explosive person. I'm good at adagio and the slower stuff but even things like échappé and more explosive movements, I struggle with those. So hopefully working on those is sort of a small goal at the moment that will hopefully lead to bigger things.
Julie: Well certainly lead to helping you with point work when you get there because it's a very explosive to get up there on to the pointe.
Kat: Yeah, exactly. And my teacher said that… because I do have quite strong ankles, and they are quite strong but flexible. So she was like “Once you go en pointe, it'll look great. But it's just getting there.” But I'm excited to like … again, because Tasi is quite small, there's only 1 shop here that stocks, pointe shoes. And like our teacher recommended we probably go up into Melbourne for a weekend and get fitted at a Bloch shop or something like that. So the whole thing is just this big, exciting thing in my future that I just can’t wait to do.
Julie: A pilgrimage!
Kat: Yes. And like the girls and I do ballet with, we’re hoping we all get there at the same time, so we can make a weekend of it. It should just be really fun.
Julie: So fun. It's really is a day to remember. I think that was one of those things where once you get the shoes, it's like it's a whole new world, right? It's a whole new world once you get the shoes, it's so hard but in ways you didn't even think of. You'd never heard of it being hard before it hurts a new way. It hurts in ways you didn't think it would hurt and doesn't Yeah, you think it would hurt? Yeah, that first day, man that first day when you get to the shop, and they put the pair of shoes on you and they're like, now step up and you're “Oh, step up right now?” It’s so exciting!
Kat: It feels like being a little kid again. I think especially that's what like I always think like, “Oh, I wish I done ballet like when I was younger for longer. Bla bla bla,” but then I think like, I love it so much now. like I go to class just smiling and I leave the same. I'm like, if I had done it as a kid, like I wouldn't have that first experience of everything as an adult, I think you'll appreciate a little bit more maybe?
“It feels like being a little kid again. I think especially that’s what like I always think like, “Oh, I wish I done ballet when I was younger for longer. Bla bla bla,” but then I think, I love it so much now. I go to class just smiling and I leave the same. If I had done it as a kid, I wouldn’t have that first experience of everything as an adult. I think you appreciate it a little bit more.”
Julie: Yeah. Oh, for sure. I think adults appreciate everything more than kids do. We just have.. Yeah, we just have more under our belt. It's not.. it's a different experience.
Kat: Yeah. And it's like, appreciating what, your body can DO! I'm not old, but I'm 25, I'm a lot less flexible than I was even when I was 15. So when I can do something I'm like, “Oh my god, like I can get my leg there.” Or I can see it getting better. It's crazy.
Julie: It's exciting. When you see your body change when you see your change, when you see your abilities change. It's very exciting.
Kat: Yeah, week by week, it's kind of hard. You're like, “Oh, I still can’t do that.” And then yeah, like I try to film myself and take photos so that I can see. And I do too. I'm like, “Oh, like when I started you know, my développé à la seconde was really low. But now it's up here.” Like, “Oh, like I'm changing, this is fun!”
Julie: Yeah, it's super fun to see all that start working. How many people are in your in your class normally in school? What is your school like?
Kat: So at the moment, I do two group classes. So as it kind of works like I started in adult ballet, Absolute Beginner One that was the name of my course. And then we just moved into the second beginner class. And then my teacher also asked if I wanted to start the third beginner class because she was like, “Oh, like, I think it'll help you.” So I'm doing two and three. But they’re still like absolute beginner. But in the third level class, there's probably eight or nine of us, but in my number two class, there’s only four of us, right sometimes, but it's really small. Which is awesome. And I'm starting a private lesson tomorrow as well, just every couple of weeks. So that'll be hopefully I'll be able to focus on the things that are hard. Try and get better at those I can do them in a group class because it's hard, even with four people, Lisa doesn't have time to give us all a lot of attention, which is fair enough. But it means like some of the stuff that I'm not very good at just it happens and then it's done. And then I'm still not very good at it.
Julie: Yes, that does sound like a how a lot of ballet class goes.
Kat: Yeah, like “Thank God that’s over”
Julie: We'll just leave that for next week.
Kat: Definitely
Julie: Totally. So you're so you're taking a couple of days a week and you've got private lessons. That's a lot of ballet. That's awesome.
Kat: Yeah, I think when I first started, once a week was fine. And then I think I started, especially when I started looking at Instagram and finding the ballet community there. I was like, “Oh, once a week isn't fine for me, at least it was fine, for just a fun little hobby, but for actually wanting to get better at it. And, I'm never going to dance professionally or anything, but I'd like to be in the concert one year or something. So I think, doing a second class, I've definitely found I've improved a lot more doing two hours instead of one, sort of thing.
Julie: Well, it's literally twice as much, right?
Kat: Yeah, exactly. It's funny, though. I was feeling a bit like, “I'm no good at this” the other day. And then I worked out the amount of hours I've ever done ballet, and it was less than one week's full time work. And I was like, “Oh, you wouldn't start a new job. And then after a week and think that you should know everything.” So I think that's a good perspective for me to have because I do.. I am very much like, “why am I not good at this yet? I’ve been doing it for two days, I should be perfect.” And then sometimes that makes me want to stop. But I haven’t with this. So I think the small incremental growth definitely helps with it.
“I was feeling a bit like, “I’m no good at this” the other day. And then I worked out the amount of hours I’ve ever done ballet, and it was less than one week’s full time work. And I was like, “Oh, you wouldn’t start a new job. And then after a week and think that you should know everything.” So I think that’s a good perspective for me to have because I do.. I am very much like, “why am I not good at this yet? I’ve been doing it for two days, I should be perfect.” And then sometimes that makes me want to stop. But I haven’t with this. So I think the small incremental growth definitely helps with it.”
Julie: That was a smart idea to check how many hours you've been doing it. That’s a really good perspective, because especially for adults with professional careers and doing something else, you know how long it takes you to be good at your job, right? And usually, you take three months of full time before you're considered like useful to your employer.
Kat: Yeah, I guess still after a week, even… I work in admin sort-of work. And we had a new lady start last week, and the first week, I didn't really get her to do anything. It was just getting the lay of the land. It's more like, “Oh, where's the toilet in this building?” You're not gonna be amazing at your job. And I was like, “Oh, I've literally done ballet for 36 hours in class. Okay.” They say it takes like, 10,000 hours to master a skill. So I'm never gonna get there probably, but 36 hours, yeah, I can kind of put that into perspective.
Julie: Yeah, I think that's.. I've never thought of it like that before. But that's a really, that's a really smart idea.
On Kat’s other Artistic Pursuits: Drawing & Writing
Julie: So you mentioned having gotten discouraged and other things in the past that have had, what other kinds of things have you tried in your life that you were excited about, or maybe not even as excited as this?
Kat: I did try hip hop once, I will admit. I was not good at that. I wasn't that excited about that, but a friend of mine really wanted to do it. And she convinced me to go with it. And I was not good. And I did not go back. Again, I think that just kind of put me off dance for a while. Which was sad because I mean, I love ballet. So there’s probably other dance I would like that isn’t hip hop. I think hip hop is amazing, but I'm no good at that. There's lots of little things, but I'm an artist and a writer as well. And there’s certain days where I'll just draw something and I'm like, “Oh, God, why am I doing this? Like, it's horrible.” And it just makes me want to not do it anymore. But I think that's just a bit of kind of part of my personality that I need to work on. Not giving up, I don't necessarily give up but just that immediate gratification that I seek isn't always going to be there for things. Especially something like ballet.
Julie: Yeah. So true, so wise. It's true. I'm sure with with your art and your writing. It's more about the consistency and how often you do it and how regularly versus the particular individual sessions.
Kat: Yeah, that's exactly right. Like, yeah, those are things that I've worked on for a long time, or writing a children's book and illustrating it, so when I look at that as a whole, “Oh, look what I've done,” but sometimes I'll be working on just a piece of and I'm like, “Oh, why am I doing this? I'm terrible. No one's ever gonna buy this. It's never gonna be worth anything.” But then when I flip back, I've actually done something and spent all the time on this. Don't think like that.
Julie: This is amazing. So you are an illustrator, artist, writer. That's awesome. How did you get into that?
Kat: It's something I've done my whole life. I've always loved writing and drawing. I’d just finished my bachelor's at uni, and I did in communication, but it was sort of an open degree. So I did a bit of design and a bit of Creative Writing within that as well, which kind of gave me more of the push to want to pursue it a bit. And I started freelance writing and like kind of freelance illustrating as well last year around September. So it’s sort of just been like something that was always a bit of a hobby into something that now makes me very, very small amount of income, which is exciting.
Julie: That little bit makes a difference.
Kat: It does. And it kind of helps put faith in what you're doing too. Like if someone wants to pay for, you know, portrait that I've done just like, “Oh, maybe it is ok, maybe I haven't done a bad job.”
Julie: Well, how long did it take you? I guess you'd been drawing for a very long time before that started happening?
Kat: Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah. I've been drawing since when I could hold a pen, really. And same with writing. Like, I thought “books” that I wrote when I was in kindergarten and grade one and these handwritten stories and illustrate like they’re awful, like a seven year old’s done them, but it's kind of fun to look back and be like, “Oh, I always wanted to do this.”
Julie: Wow, that's an amazing passion to have in your life.
Kat: Yeah, it's something I guess it's one of those things I never really…. I don't think about that often. Because it's just something I do. My sister’s the same. She’s writing a book at the moment as well. And she's really good illustrator and we’re … I guess our parents always encouraged us to be creative. Even though both of us were quite like good at school, and quite academic as well in our own ways, the creative side was something that was always there, when that was too hard to sort of focus on. So it's never really been like a … like, it is a passion, but it's just kind of like part of my personality, I guess, as well… It's just something I do!
Julie: Well, I think it's amazing.
Kat: Thank you.
How does the process with ballet relate to those artistic endeavors?
Julie: So when you think about what do you think about like you said, You've got so many creative endeavors that you do writing, illustrating, and now ballet as well? Does ballet feel like this similar process as those things to you? Or is it totally different? Because you're in a totally different place in it? Or what? How are those related or not related?
Kat: It does like it, definitely, it's almost another…. It's hard. I feel like ballet, it's part of my personality now, but it's still fresh and exciting and new. Whereas sometimes I need to work on a drawing, or I need to work on a piece of writing, and I love doing that still, but it's almost like a little bit of work now. Whereas ballet just never feels like work. I could go to eight ballet classes a week. And I mean, that probably would get old eventually, but right now, that would be amazing. But I feel like it makes me feel like a kid again. I can remember learning … getting those learn-how-to-draw books and learning how to draw faces and things, and it kind of feels like that. So I guess yeah, it does feel like the same, but at an earlier stage.
“I feel like ballet, it’s part of my personality now, but it’s still fresh and exciting and new. Whereas sometimes I need to work on a drawing, or I need to work on a piece of writing, and I love doing that still, but it’s almost like a little bit of work now. Whereas ballet just never feels like work. I could go to eight ballet classes a week. And I mean, that probably would get old eventually, but right now, that would be amazing. But I feel like it makes me feel like a kid again. I can remember learning … getting those learn-how-to-draw books and learning how to draw faces and things, and it kind of feels like that. So I guess yeah, it does feel like the same, but at an earlier stage.”
Julie: Yeah, it totally does. But it's different, because you're an adult, right? It's a different sense, in that you have other things that you've already done all that process with, now you have this one where you kind of get to start over on it, it's like starting fresh.
Kat: I think it helps too, reminding myself and seeing work that I did when I was a kid and the work that I can do now, and thinking of it in terms of ballet, when I get a bit down and I think, “Oh, I should be better at this, you know the other girls in my class are really good at jumps and I'm terrible.” And then I think, “well, I will get better. And I know I will get better. It just will take a little while.” But there's proof in the pudding. I've seen myself get better at other things, so I know that I can. But it's just it takes time.
“I think it helps too, reminding myself and seeing work that I did when I was a kid and the work that I can do now, and thinking of it in terms of ballet, when I get a bit down and I think, “Oh, I should be better at this, you know the other girls in my class are really good at jumps and I’m terrible.” And then I think, “well, I will get better. And I know I will get better. It just will take a little while.” But there’s proof in the pudding. I’ve seen myself get better at other things, so I know that I can. But it’s just it takes time. ”
Julie: Patience.
Kat: Yes, I do not have much of that.
Julie: Patience is one of the… I guess that's why they call it a virtue… but it's one of the very, very hard things to acquire, I think.
Kat: Yes, absolutely. It's something I don't think I was born with, and it's something I've worked on a lot. And I still don't have a lot of it. But yeah, it's definitely important in something like ballet. Even just in class, like the patience to finish your pliés. Sometimes I'm like, “Oh, God….” because I have a really shallow plié. So plié for me is really hard like a grunt of an exercise. So doing that is like “I just want to be over, I just want to be done.” And I'm like, “Okay, well now that's done, I'll probably be a little bit better next time because I did work hard on it.”
Julie: Yeah, right. Just being willing to go through the process.
Kat: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right.
Julie: I'm always fascinated to learn how other things are taught, like how languages are taught, how everything is taught in comparison with how we teach ballet? Do you recall back to how you teach someone how to draw? Or how you teach someone how to write? And how is that being taught as opposed to how you're learning ballet from the beginning?
Kat: Do you mean like how I learned to draw how I would teach someone now?
Julie: Maybe either whichever one you maybe have more perspective on or are more interested in talking about.
Kat: Drawing and ballet, I feel like there's some similarities. Especially when I was learning to draw, copying was… I've always been really good at copying. I didn't necessarily have my own style for a long time, but when you gave me a picture of your cat, I could draw your cat, even as a younger kid, I could draw something that looked at least vaguely like the cat. I feel like ballet is kind of similar in that when I'm like, “Oh, I can't do attitude,” I’ll find a photo of it. And I'll be like, “Okay, well, you know, her leg’s there…” and I'll look at the photo and I'll like, you know, it's not how I'm actually going to do the thing in the end, but I'll stand there and work out how it feels. And I guess that is kind of like drawing. Even looking at like a famous artist’s work. If you can copy that you can still learn the skills from it. It's not stealing the methods, it’s learning them. So I guess it's similar with ballet, you watch a video or you look at a photo and they know how to do it, how are they doing it? And then you can kind of find your own path to it, I guess. Whether it's 100% correct or if it's just your own little variation on something, which I'm doing quite a lot.
Julie: Wow, that's fascinating. I guess, maybe there's two ways that we can learn ballet and that we learn and teach ballet in the beginning, which is number one, follow along, like follow along or copy the person in front of you, or copy a picture. And then number two is when you get further into it, maybe the more detailed step by step like “Now engage this muscle, now engage this muscle, now engage that muscle?” And then I guess that would be more like those drawing books where it's like, “Step one, draw one circle. Step two, draw the triangles for the ears.”
Kat": Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like you have to know the little foundations first. Because even if it's all well and cool for me to say like, “Oh, here, draw a circle or triangle.” And if you have some knowledge of how things come together, you can do that. But if you've never picked up a pencil in your life, you're gonna be like, “Well, how is a circle and a triangle going to turn into a cat?” You don't know how that's gonna …. You need to see someone do the end bit first. I think that's kind of how it works for me.
Julie: I took drawing in college and was no good. I mean, I learned to get better over time. And I didn't actually believe… I didn't actually know that drawing was a skill you could learn. I just thought there's people who are good at drawing, because by the time you get to be 20, the people who have been drawing have been drawing since they were five. Right, like as you said, you’ve been drawing since you were five, you have you have 15 years of practice when I'm starting at zero, right. Now, I think having gone through this whole journey with ballet, I think I would question that idea anywhere. But still, when I took the drawing class, in the beginning, we did do a lot of copying and still lifes, but then I don't think I started understanding it until they actually showed us how perspective works, then “Oh, so that thing over there needs to be smaller. And that's how you get a to work” or like how contract works or how colors worked. And then I was able to understand and actually be able to copy.
Kat: Yeah, it's like the theory behind it like, and I think that's the thing with ballet. To me, that's a difference between someone who might do ballet just as a form of exercise, or just their fun Saturday afternoon thing, which is totally fine. Everyone should do that. Because it’s fun. And then someone who …. I want to learn all the terms, I want my teacher to critique me and tell me for the millionth time to point my toe, or heel to the floor, or all things that I constantly need to be told to do. But there's like those two different steps I guess, yeah, you can be a really good artist to someone who doesn't know artwork. You can draw a picture and someone will be like, “Oh, I love that, thanks so much.” Or then you can take someone who has studied and does know perspective, and black and white shapes and negative space, all these things that you do learn in school, or you sort of pick up along the way. And they can draw something that's the same and then you can say like, “oh, that's what…” It’s the difference between talent and like hard work, I guess. There are people who are just good at… we all knew that five year old who could drive way better cars than everyone else. But once I put in the hard work as well, I think you need the good mix of it.
Julie: I agree. If you're if you're just good at it by itself naturally, I don't think you'll find it as interesting as if you had to work for it.
Kat: Yeah, definitely. I think that's the thing with ballet for me.There are a couple people like that I've met at my school who like might be returning students, or they did do it till there were 14, and then they stopped. And they still love it in a different way. But I'm experiencing it all just completely for the first time. So people get like, “Oh, God, I don't want to do adagio” but I’m like “Yes, I want to do that. I love it. It's my favorite part in the class.”
Julie: I with you, I'm with you. Adagio is my favorite part. I'm like, “Let's just never move fast ever. I'm fine with that.”
Kat: I'm not a fast moving person. I'm a little slow.
Julie: I'm the same way it takes a lot to get it takes a lot to get this body moving quick.
Kat: Yeah, yeah,
Julie: Not my favorite.
Kat: Like people in my class… there’s this really tall guy in my Wednesday class. And he's so funny and he loves ballet. And he's so bouncy. His jumps are so high and I'm like “How do you do that?” I don't have time to point my toes, I don't get off the floor! I’m just gonna go over here and just do my arabesque, thanks.
Julie: Yeah, that's always so fun to see other people who have a totally opposite skill set.
Kat: Yeah, we were talking in class the other day about how although there's like this…. people think there’s this perfect ballet body, but it’s just, there isn't … and even my teacher who, she danced professionally and she went to ballet school stuff … she still struggles, she has same thing as I do: hyper-mobile knees, so she can't fully close into 1st, which I can't either. And she still sickles on her right foot, and there's all these little things that you’d think she’s perfect and she could do everything but it’s like no, you just kind of work you’re own way around your body.
“People think there’s this perfect ballet body, but it’s just, there isn’t … and even my teacher who, she danced professionally and she went to ballet school … she still struggles with the same thing as I do: hyper-mobile knees, so she can’t fully close into 1st, which I can’t either. And she still sickles on her right foot, and there’s all these little things that you’d think “She’s perfect and she could do everything” but it’s like no, you just kind of work you’re own way around your body. ”
When I first started, I was like, “Why can't I close my legs? Why are my heels not touching in first?” And she was like, “Oh, you're hypermobile.” And I didn't even know that. And then I was like, “Oh, yeah, my leg kind of goes like [motions backwards], it's bent the other way.” So it's a whole new thing that I have to learn to…. balancing in arabesque, I have to really shift my weight in a different way than someone who has a perfectly straight leg. Like all the little things that you have to work for your own body.
Julie: I heard it called once a negotiation with your body.
Kat: Ooooh, yes. I like that. That is a very good… Yeah. I’m going to use that, I think.
Julie: Yeah, I thought that was appropriate.
Kat: That’s what it feels like. It’s like “What are we gonna be able to do today?” Because there's always something every class that you’re like, “Oh, that didn’t go as well as I thought it might,” But if I can trade that off with something that went a little bit better. That's a good negotiation.
Julie: And I'm like, “Alright, legs. Here's what I'm going to need you to do. I'm going to need you to move this fast.” And they're like, “Okay, well, I can do this fast. And I’m like, “Okay, well, at least it's…. okay.” Or at least “Okay, fine. I'll take it.”
Kat: Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, “Alright, fine. If I can't do my pas de chat good, can I just have the glissades? Yeah? Okay, good?” If we can get that one right, that's fine. That'll do it for this week.
Julie: That's right. negotiation, prioritization. These are all things that work, they should all be things in ballet class as well.
Kat: Yeah, I think there's like little bits where things don't become part of the deal anymore. We've been doing… we always do a pretty similar tendu combination. And like, my body says, “Okay, I can do that now. We don't have to think about that anymore.” There's things that I just know how to … very basic things, but I can do those now. And then there's other things that require a lot of like, mental combat, almost to be like, “No, come on, we're gonna give it a try.”
Julie: Mental combat. Yeah, sometimes that is very accurate as to how it feels.
Kat: Temps levé is…. my body does not like that. I just don't get off the ground.
Julie: Oh, that's, that's very hard. I'm sure. I have not jumped in a long time. I'm sure a temps levé would not be the first thing I would try.
Kat: Right it’s so hard. And there’s so many things to think about. I used to swim a bit as a kid. Never competitively, but I did swimming lessons for a long time. And I loved swimming. And it was so hard for me to learn how to do the breast stroke, to do the arms and the legs. And I feel like it's in ballet, doing something like temps levé where I have to think, “Okay, I need my arabesque arms. Yep, okay third. Yep. Okay. Now I also need to remember to not go in parallel, okay, fine. I need to bend my leg when I come back down, I need to point my toe when I'm in the air, I need to remember that this leg has to go back and also should point and should be somewhat high,” and there’s just too many things. So I watch myself in the mirror just kind of galloping like a horse that’s just learned to walk. And it’s like “Ok, if I did one of those, if I remembered not to do this [looks up, lifts chin] with my head, because I always look up as well. That's fine. If I can just get one of them consistently. Tick one off at a time.”
“And there’s so many things to think about. I used to swim a bit as a kid. Never competitively, but I did swimming lessons for a long time. And I loved swimming. And it was so hard for me to learn how to do the breast stroke, to do the arms and the legs. And I feel like it’s in ballet, doing something like temps levé where I have to think, “Okay, I need my arabesque arms. Yep, okay third. Yep. Okay. Now I also need to remember to not go in parallel, okay, fine. I need to bend my leg when I come back down, I need to point my toe when I’m in the air, I need to remember that this leg has to go back and also should point and should be somewhat high,” and there’s just too many things. So I watch myself in the mirror just kind of galloping like a horse that’s just learned to walk. And it’s like “Ok, if I did one of those, if I remembered not to do this [looks up, lifts chin] with my head, because I always look up as well. That’s fine. If I can just get one of them consistently. Tick one off at a time.””
Julie: That's right. The the checklist is never ending. And the problem is that if you check one of them off, your teacher’s like “Oh, you get it. Let me put something new on your checklist.”
Kat: Yeah, yeah, that's what my teacher said a couple weeks ago, she was like, “That is a good thing. Because it means you're slowly getting better. But I will always find things to critique you on, because there's just never enough…. you're never gonna be perfect at ballet. No one ever is.”
“The the checklist is never ending. And the problem is that if you check one of them off, your teacher’s like “Oh, you get it. Let me put something new on your checklist.”
Kat: Yeah, yeah, that’s what my teacher said a couple weeks ago, she was like, “That is a good thing. Because it means you’re slowly getting better. But I will always find things to critique you on, because there’s just never enough…. you’re never gonna be perfect at ballet. No one ever is.””
Julie: Yeah, that's actually something that's often really, really challenging for people who are new to ballet because it is so critical. Everything in ballet is so critical. I think in the adult community, generally the teachers are just super supportive about it. Still, you're maybe not used to every single thing being nitpicked, ad nauseum. At work, you don't quite get nitpicked all day long, right? It's like, you get some feedback here and there, but it's not every single thing.
Kat: You can kind of fly under the radar.
Julie: Right? There's none of that really, in ballet class, maybe in a big group, but not certainly not in five to nine.
Kat: I know, my teacher’s constantly telling me, “Plié, Kat plié, plié.” And she knows that I can't go any further. But it's that reminder to just be aware of it and it will get better, but I need to push it back a little bit further every time. And she always says at the end “I sound like a broken record.” I'm like, “No, but if you don't remind me, I'll think that I’ve got it. Or I'll think that you've given up on me, that’s even worse.” I want to get better. And yeah, it's a good reminder to keep trying,
On discouragement
Julie: Did it ever discourage you to get that much feedback in the beginning?
Kat: A little bit. I think it was more that it was surprising some of the things that other people could just do that I couldn't do. Like when we did our first pliés and like my teacher was, “Oh, you need to go down a bit further.” and I was like, “Oh, I literally can't. My legs will not bend anymore.” That kind of thing was like, “Oh, why can't I do…. we're all the same level, why can't I do that?” But then there’s things like, I have really flexible ankles so I can point my feet pretty much without even pointing, and other people have flat feet and can’t do that. Yeah, I was a little bit “Oh :( I can't do that, but I can do this. Okay.” And yeah, it does get aggravating, like, “Why is that not getting better?” But it probably is I just can't see it yet.
Julie: That's the thing. It's small progress.
Kat: Yeah. The owner of my school has the same problem. And she said she just had to learn to use it basically.
Julie: That's basically what it is right? Whatever your body gives you is what you've got to work with. I always say that our job is to figure out how to make ballet work for your body, whatever your body is. There is a negotiation process, right? We're trying to become more flexible, trying to improve our turnout, all that stuff. But we want to figure out how to make ballet fit on ourselves.
Kat: You don't want to be constantly working….. I mean, you do want to be constantly working, but you also need to be having fun now. It's like having a wardrobe full of clothes that don't fit because you're trying to lose all this weight. It's like, “Well, you need clothes that fit now.” Doesn't matter what goals you have in the future, no matter what you think you “need to be,” you need things that are fun now. If ballet’s not fun, there’s no point in doing it for me.
“You do want to be constantly working, but you also need to be having fun now. It’s like having a wardrobe full of clothes that don’t fit because you’re trying to lose all this weight. It’s like, “Well, you need clothes that fit now.” Doesn’t matter what goals you have in the future, no matter what you think you “need to be,” you need things that are fun now. If ballet’s not fun, there’s no point in doing it for me.”
Julie: I love that analogy. That's so nice. You need clothes that fit you now… you need to enjoy it now even though you want something else.
Kat: Yeah, exactly. I feel like otherwise, you just gonna be miserable, and you may never reach that end goal that you have on a pedestal or whatever that is. And then you've got nothing to show for it anyway. Like, I feel like yeah, you kind of forget about it. If you're having so much fun now, no matter what its gonna look like in two years, five years. Three days. You’ve got that “at least I had fun” kind of thing.
“I feel like otherwise, you’re just gonna be miserable, and you may never reach that end goal that you have on a pedestal or whatever that is. And then you’ve got nothing to show for it. You kind of forget about it if you’re having so much fun now, no matter what its gonna look like in two years, five years. Three days. You’ve got that “at least I had fun” kind of thing.”
Julie: Yeah, I love that. That's really, really sweet.
Parting wisdom for new dancers
Julie: So to wrap up here, I love that you're so new in your ballet journey, because a lot of people listening to our show are new, and they're hearing from people who are 5, 10 years down the line, so it's really great that you're so fresh in the process. What would be your final parting words for people who might be in your boat, let's say Kat from January? What would you wish you had known? Or what do you want to tell our new dancer listeners?
Kat: Number one, if it's something you're thinking of doing, just do it. If there’s a studio near you that has an option for a trial class, or pay-by-the-week kind of thing. Because it can be expensive, if you decide you don't like it. But, I think like most of us, you KNOW…. there's something you've wanted to do for 10 years, and you've never been able to do it, you KNOW that you're gonna love it. Like you just ARE. So I think “just do it” is the main thing and just get outside of the comfort zone. People at ballet are always really nice. And the teachers are just so excited that someone loves ballet because they do too.
“But, I think for most of us, you KNOW…. there’s something you’ve wanted to do for 10 years, and you’ve never been able to do it, you KNOW that you’re gonna love it. Like you just ARE. So I think “just do it” is the main thing and just get outside of the comfort zone. People at ballet are always really nice. And the teachers are just so excited that someone loves ballet because they do too. ”
And my other thing would be get the clothes because you feel so much better, and so much prettier and more graceful. When I've got ballet in a couple hours and I’ll put my leotard on, and I just feel like, it doesn't matter if all my moves feel a bit wrong, I can look in the mirror and be like “Oh, there’s a ballerina.” That's the other thing is, for me, I used to think like “Oh, I want to be a ballerina”…. if you do ballet, your a ballerina! It doesn’t matter if you’re not good at it yet. Like you're a baby ballerina then, but you're a ballerina.
“Get the clothes because you feel so much better, and so much prettier and more graceful. When I’ve got ballet in a couple hours and I’ll put my leotard on, and I just feel like, it doesn’t matter if all my moves feel a bit wrong, I can look in the mirror and be like “Oh, there’s a ballerina.” That’s the other thing is, for me, I used to think like “Oh, I want to be a ballerina”…. if you do ballet, your a ballerina! It doesn’t matter if you’re not good at it yet. Like you’re a baby ballerina then, but you’re a ballerina.”
Julie: I love that. I love you. If you can't call yourself a ballerina at least go for baby ballerina.
Kat: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Julie: That's really, really sweet. I think that is some really nice advice. And it is very helpful to have something that reminds you that you are doing it even if you're not perfect at it the first day as you said, counting the hours, looking in the mirror and loving it enjoying the moment of it because it is a long journey, but if you've been wanting to do it for a long time, just having fun along the way is gonna help you stick it out.
Kat: Exactly. Like you don't want to get to like whatever age and think, “I didn't do that, and like, Why? Why did I do that? Like, what was I was too scared of someone seeing me in a leotard, or I was scared I was going to be bad.” Like, those are the things that are going to happen. Someone is going to see you in a leotard, you are going to be bad. Like they're going to happen. So like then I don't know, I'm not even anxious about those things anymore because I feel like anxiety is so rooted in things that MIGHT happen. So it's like we'll they ARE going to happen. If you've never danced before, you're going to be bad at it, so is everyone else. Just go and do it.
“You don’t want to get to whatever age and think, “I didn’t do that, and like, Why? Why did I do that? What, was I was too scared of someone seeing me in a leotard, or too scared I was going to be bad.” Like, those are the things that ARE going to happen. Someone IS going to see you in a leotard, you ARE going to be bad. They’re going to happen.
I’m not even anxious about those things anymore because I feel like anxiety is so rooted in things that MIGHT happen. So it’s like well they ARE going to happen. If you’ve never danced before, you’re going to be bad at it, so is everyone else. Just go and do it. ”
But I mean, it's easier said than done. And it did take me a while to actually do that. So
Julie: Yeah, well, it's helpful to hear from the other side, though, right. I think it is helpful to hear that it's not a “what if” it's a “it will be” and then if it is, what's the worst case? Like let's say you are bad at it or someone sees me in a leotard? What's the worst case scenario?
Kat: Exactly. Like if you go somewhere and people are mean and say “Why are you wearing that? You’re really bad at it.” You don't want to be there. Go find somewhere else. It’s not you, in those situations, it's never your problem, “okay, we’ll go find another studio or do some of the classes online.” There's always another way. You don't have to be in a horrible position but it's worth putting yourself out there, I think
Julie: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Ka. It was so fun to get to know you. I love your ballet journey so far and I'm excited for the day you get those pointe shoes.
Kat: Yes, me too. I'll be very excited.
Julie: Very exciting. Awesome. Well, thank you again. It's been so fun to chat.
Kat: Thank you
